So, I'm looking into buying a new pistol. I don't have an automatic, so I'm looking for a good one.
I think I want a Springfield XD, but I don't know if I really want a .45, since my .357 fulfils my "heavy pistol" requirement. Does anyone know anything about the XD 9mm?
I shot a Barett 92FS the other day, and I wasn't all that impressed. I mean, it was a nice adequate gun, but I found it slightly heavier than I like and overall just "meh."
I've never shot a Glock, so I can't judge on that. Really, I'm looking for a slim to compact 9mm that would be reasonably accurate and reasonable priced. A secondary consideration (in case I move to a state where this is legal) would be comfortable to carry.
The reason I've asked here is because I trust you people, and the gun sites I know are really scary. If you know any decent gun sites, linky please!
That's one thing I dig about a small hobby, btw, there are like 5,000 gun fora out there, but maybe 100 RPG ones...
Make it a big one so that you can stand in the mirror whilst pulling it out and going "DOOM COCK!"
Or do you have one of those already?
As an Englishman, i still have to give a double-take when i see threads like this. :D
Carry on...
Quote from: One Horse TownAs an Englishman, i still have to give a double-take when i see threads like this. :D
Carry on...
The english government likes having it's people nice and unarmed, so you can't do anything about it putting cameras everywhere, installing monitor devices in cars so it can track your every movement, etc.
Quote from: One Horse TownAs an Englishman, i still have to give a double-take when i see threads like this. :D
Carry on...
Threads like this one NEVER surprise me. I grew up with a father that was a lifetime member of the NRA and a founding member of the Ruger Collecter's Association. Father & son journeys around town usually involved long stops at Gun stores and Sporting Goods stores. Dad used to write a "Gun Advice" column in the 1970s for a magazine called
Hunting Dog.
Joe , I will give my Dad a copy of your questions. He still knows more about guns than I do or most people that I know.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: KoltarDad used to write a "Gun Advice" column in the 1970s for a magazine called Hunting Dog.
Dude! That's deranged! Your father told people how to hunt dogs? like offing neighbourhood dogs with high-powered rifles? isn't that illegal? I can understand hunting dear or a wild boar because them's good eating but killing dogs?
Glocks are great. My brother owns a Glock 19 that is a pleasure to shoot. They are very comfortable to shoot, both in shape and perceived recoil.
I recently got to shoot the Springfield XD-9 at my local shooting range, and it performed well. Not quite as comfortable as the Glock (but not uncomfortable), and a bit heavier and bulkier, but I felt like I was a bit more accurate with it.
For a small light 9mm, I own a Kahr CW9, and it is incredible. Weighs about 16 oz (polymer frame), holds 7+1, single stack so it's pretty slim (much smaller than the Springfield or the Glock). It runs about $450 in my neck of the woods.
Cute Joke Mr. Analytical - but no.
The magazine was for hunters that used trained hunting dogs.
My father gave advice about various hunting rifles, shotguns, guns of all kinds, if they might be collecter's items, the right kind of ammo to use , - that kind of thing.
The column was called ASk Bob about Guns. Whats funny is in that when I look at the old copies of the magazine my Dad looks the way James Doohan did in the first STAR TREK movie . He has the same salt & pepper mix in his hair and same kind of mustache.
- E.W.C.
For my 9mm, I have a Walther P-1, which has about the smoothest action of any pistol I've fired, but also is wayyyy too long for the sort of slimmer pistol it sounds like you're looking for.
For a 9mm with a reasonable tag, would you consider the Ruger P89 (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=3042)? A lot of folks swear by 'em, and you can get them like new in my area for about $230-$260.
Quote from: TechnomancerGlocks are great. My brother owns a Glock 19 that is a pleasure to shoot. They are very comfortable to shoot, both in shape and perceived recoil.
I have an Austrian-made Glock 17 that is a dream to shoot. I have been burned by recommending Glocks to friends in the distant past because at least for a while the ones made in the United States (after the ban) had some serious quality issues. They may have worked those out years ago, but that was my limited experience with the American-made examples.
Quote from: TechnomancerFor a small light 9mm, I own a Kahr CW9, and it is incredible. Weighs about 16 oz (polymer frame), holds 7+1, single stack so it's pretty slim (much smaller than the Springfield or the Glock). It runs about $450 in my neck of the woods.
Listen to Technomancer here, Joe. Kahr pistols rock the house. I have a Kahr PM9 and, with the exception of my Austrian Glock, it has been the best gun purchase I ever made. Light, slim, and feels great. It is not the most comfortable shooter if you are using +P loads, but it's not bad.
TGA
I would suggest looking at the HK USP lineup, but then again you mentioned heaviness. I have fired the .40 S&W and found it a dream, and I am about 99% certain there is a 9mm out there that is smaller than the .40 or the .45 that I have.
On that note, have you considered the .40 S&W rounds? Last I checked, and it was a few years back, a lot of police departments were trading up. It's not really any(much) bigger, heavier or harder to shoot, but does seem to work better.
Hm... to be honest, I'm at a loss. I like shouting DOOM COCK.
Sorry, when it comes to pistols I'm much like Quigley. "Never had much use for them".
Quote from: The Good AssyrianI have an Austrian-made Glock 17 that is a dream to shoot. I have been burned by recommending Glocks to friends in the distant past because at least for a while the ones made in the United States (after the ban) had some serious quality issues. They may have worked those out years ago, but that was my limited experience with the American-made examples.
TGA
Yeah, there are some quality issues if you're looking at the US-made ones of a few years ago. Friend of mine had one (not sure on model), and said the action was really rough. Glocks are dreamy, but you want to watch where they're made. Don't know if this is still the case..???
Quote from: GunslingerSorry, when it comes to pistols I'm much like Quigley. "Never had much use for them".
You do realize the delicious irony of this coming from someone calling themselves Gunslinger... :D
TGA
I had a chance to shoot my uncles P-89 and I liked it. It felt good and balanced in my hand. I have smaller hands (i'm ~5'7) and the grip was perfect.
Quote from: The Good AssyrianYou do realize the delicious irony of this coming from someone calling themselves Gunslinger... :D
Shotguns, Doc Holiday style. ;)
Quote from: Zachary The FirstYeah, there are some quality issues if you're looking at the US-made ones of a few years ago. Friend of mine had one (not sure on model), and said the action was really rough. Glocks are dreamy, but you want to watch where they're made. Don't know if this is still the case..???
The problems I saw where with Glocks made maybe about 12 years ago when the company first started manufacturing them in Georgia due to the restrictions of the assault weapon importation ban, as I recall. A couple of friends bought them on my recommendation and were really disappointed with the reliability and smoothness of the action and ended up selling them and getting other pistols instead. I am sure that these issues have been worked out since then, but I am sticking with my Austrian-made Glock all the same.
TGA
Quote from: GunslingerShotguns, Doc Holiday style. ;)
Sweet...
TGA
9mm. Pfeh.
M-1911, custom built and accurized by my father, back in the day, with Black Talon rounds. Who needs double stacked clips? Just make sure that you hit your target. :)
Quote from: The Good AssyrianListen to Technomancer here, Joe. Kahr pistols rock the house. I have a Kahr PM9 and, with the exception of my Austrian Glock, it has been the best gun purchase I ever made. Light, slim, and feels great. It is not the most comfortable shooter if you are using +P loads, but it's not bad.
Thank you TGA, and Technomancer. I hadn't tried the Kahr before, when I get back up to Chi-town I'll rent one and try it out.
I'm not a big fan of +P rounds, if I want more power to my 9mm, I'll buy a .40S&W.
I haven't had the opportunity to fire a Glock, but I hear they're sweet! Might be out of my price range, though.
Quote from: One Horse TownAs an Englishman, i still have to give a double-take when i see threads like this. :D
Carry on...
I never noticed you were an Englishman...must be the handle.
I can only imagine how weird this kinda thread looks to you!
Don't like the 9mm +P? I grew up reading Massad Ayoob prescribe them for anything this side of Ragnarok, so I'm interested in your line of thinking. :)
If you already have a full-size .357, maybe something in a carry revolver? Does Illinois have a "shall issue" law?
EDIT: I :mario: the 2nd Amendment.
Quote from: Dominus NoxThe english government likes having it's people nice and unarmed, so you can't do anything about it putting cameras everywhere, installing monitor devices in cars so it can track your every movement, etc.
Yeah, 'cos otherwise, we'd shoot those fuckers dead.
Quote from: joewolzI never noticed you were an Englishman...must be the handle.
I can only imagine how weird this kinda thread looks to you!
I've never seen a gun, mate. Something i'm quite happy to report. Still, i can't help but feel left out when these threads turn up...I want an Uzi, motherfucker! :D
Now, a thread about knives, i can understand...
Quote from: fonkaygarryDon't like the 9mm +P? I grew up reading Massad Ayoob prescribe them for anything this side of Ragnarok, so I'm interested in your line of thinking. :)
If you already have a full-size .357, maybe something in a carry revolver? Does Illinois have a "shall issue" law?
EDIT: I :mario: the 2nd Amendment.
Illinois has no provision whatsoever for the carrying of firearms. In fact, you have to have a Firearms Owner Identification Card to own firearms or ammunition legally. Five counties and many municipalities in Illinois have made handguns illegal altogether.
If I ever make it out of the People's Republic of Illinois, I do plan on getting a stainless 5 shot .38 for carry. I really prefer revolvers to autos, and I can't figure out for the life of me why.
I'd love to drop a huge, complicated and well-reasoned argument for not liking 9mm+P, but since I have to make dinner, and because I don't have a huge reason I'll boil it down: Since I plan on using Hydra-Shok ammunition (or something similar), I really don't need the extra power in a +P, and can't justify the extra cost. I mean, really, will that extra 250lbs or pressure make a difference on someone not wearing a vest?
Quote from: joewolzThank you TGA, and Technomancer. I hadn't tried the Kahr before, when I get back up to Chi-town I'll rent one and try it out.
I'm not a big fan of +P rounds, if I want more power to my 9mm, I'll buy a .40S&W.
I haven't had the opportunity to fire a Glock, but I hear they're sweet! Might be out of my price range, though.
Np problem! Good luck in your search and trying them out for yourself is the right way to go. With different hand sizes, etc. you just don't know how it feels until you shoot it for yourself.
As for 9mm +P, many Kahr pistols (http://www.kahr.com/gunrack.html) are optimized for concealed carry and their .40 S&W model is a
wee bit bigger than the 9mm and has one less round in the magazine, so if you are looking for that in your new gun it may be a factor. I also found my PM9 on sale, so I decided to go with that and just use +P ammo. It also simplifies the ammo purchasing as I already own a 9mm Glock. I would have considered buying a .40 S&W Glock over the years (it wasn't available back when I bought mine), but as I said I am not giving up my Austrian Glock 17 anytime soon. Don't mess with something with works for you already, I always say.
TGA
Quote from: joewolzI mean, really, will that extra 250lbs or pressure make a difference on someone not wearing a vest?
What the Hell are you using this for? :confused:
Quote from: GunslingerWhat the Hell are you using this for? :confused:
Killing people who want to hurt him. Same thing that all handguns are made for.
Quote from: One Horse TownNow, a thread about knives, i can understand...
OHT, you study Silat or Kali? I've been wanting to do a little practice with a knife art.
Quote from: One Horse TownI want an Uzi, motherfucker! :D
Your wish is my command!
(http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/smg/img/uzi.jpg)
TGA
I'm currently shopping for a pistol as well. Got to carry something at least as heavy as a .45. Shot off sixty rounds or so on Sunday, trying a ruger 9mm and a .45 auto. First time with a pistol, and I gotta admit that the guns were a bit uncomfortable in my hands. Friends told me it's because I have big hands.
May be trying out a revolver this weekend.
Quote from: fonkaygarryAccidentally killing his family and firing wildly into the air when drunk. Same things that all handguns are made for.
Bit of honesty there from Garry :D
Quote from: RedFoxI'm currently shopping for a pistol as well. Got to carry something at least as heavy as a .45. Shot off sixty rounds or so on Sunday, trying a ruger 9mm and a .45 auto. First time with a pistol, and I gotta admit that the guns were a bit uncomfortable in my hands. Friends told me it's because I have big hands.
May be trying out a revolver this weekend.
you might just need to get custom grip. OTOH, a bigger gun would do the trick.:D
Quote from: Dominus NoxThe english government likes having it's people nice and unarmed, so you can't do anything about it putting cameras everywhere, installing monitor devices in cars so it can track your every movement, etc.
Never miss an opportunity to make a tit of yourself do you?
Quote from: The Good AssyrianYour wish is my command!
(http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/smg/img/uzi.jpg)
TGA
Thanks! I'll print that out. All i need now is some pictures of bullets and i'm set. :D
Quote from: fonkaygarryOHT, you study Silat or Kali? I've been wanting to do a little practice with a knife art.
Kali.
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Actually, neither, i was fucking with you. It was more of a comment on knife crime here in the UK. You have guns, we have knives. Much more personal. :(
Quote from: Mcrowyou might just need to get custom grip. OTOH, a bigger gun would do the trick.:D
Maybe, though it probably wouldn't do wonders for my accuracy in the qualifying shoot. ^_^ Then again, a heavier gun may stabilize recoil...
...but carrying that on my hip all day would be a pain. Meh.
Quote from: One Horse TownYeah, 'cos otherwise, we'd shoot those fuckers dead.
The cops who arrested that woman to stop her from publicly reading a list of british soldiers killed in iraq should have been shot dead.
Quote from: GRIMNever miss an opportunity to make a tit of yourself do you?
:blahblah:
Quote from: Dominus NoxThe cops who arrested that woman to stop her from publicly reading a list of british soldiers killed in iraq should have been shot dead.
Ze ver just following orders, mein herr.
RedFox: Ruger's GP series of revolvers in .357/.38 gets rave reviews from dudes with big hands. And if you carry it with .38s, the recoil will be negligable.
OHT: Don't play games with my heart like that. I thought we was boys. :(
I hear revolvers are more of a bitch to maintain though.
Dunno, price point is also an issue.
IMO Revolvers are easier to maintain. To properly clean an M-1911 you have to remove pins, a plate or two, and springs of course. A revolver, mostly, is just open the cylinder, clean the pin, swab the barrel, go blow holes in paper or whatnot.
(disclaimer: been a long time since a cleaned a revolver so I could be mis-remembering)
Quote from: WerekoalaIMO Revolvers are easier to maintain. To properly clean an M-1911 you have to remove pins, a plate or two, and springs of course. A revolver, mostly, is just open the cylinder, clean the pin, swab the barrel, go blow holes in paper or whatnot.
(disclaimer: been a long time since a cleaned a revolver so I could be mis-remembering)
You are entirely right. Modern revolvers are much easier to clean and maintain, and are more mechanically reliable than automatic pistols. The disadvantages of revolvers are mostly:
1. They have a limited ammunition capacity (usually 5-6, versus up to 19 for a 9mm auto). Even a compact 9mm like a Kahr PM9 has a magazine capacity of 7 (with extension), while most revolvers intended for concealment hold 5.
2. They are bulkier than autos, as a rule. The width of a pistol (not just its length) has a big impact on concealment.
I like revolvers myself. I have owned several, but I just prefer the automatic pistol in the end. Use what works best for you.
TGA
I haven't been shooting in going on 3 years. I have a beauty of a Colt Python that needs to see some action, and my .45 is getting lonely. Not as fun going by yourself, and I don't know any shooters out here in Utah. Guess I need to get off my ass and go find some shooting buddies.
Quote from: WerekoalaI haven't been shooting in going on 3 years. I have a beauty of a Colt Python that needs to see some action, and my .45 is getting lonely. Not as fun going by yourself, and I don't know any shooters out here in Utah. Guess I need to get off my ass and go find some shooting buddies.
Yeah, its been a while for me, too. I still haven't had a chance to fire the .45-.70 converted Lee Enfield carbine I got a while ago for dealing with polar bears (it's a long story). My shoulder isn't looking forward to that experience!
Maybe this weekend I will get some ammo and head out to the range.
TGA
joewolz has not told what he wants the thing for, so we can't answer him yet.
A firearm is a tool, and tools are chosen because they're suitable for some job. If someone says he wants to choose a knife, then I give a different answer whether he wants to spread jam on his bread or skin a deer or carve a bedpost.
What do you want to do with the thing, joewolz?
Quote from: JimBobOzjoewolz has not told what he wants the thing for, so we can't answer him yet.
I think that he already has...
Quote from: joewolzReally, I'm looking for a slim to compact 9mm that would be reasonably accurate and reasonable priced. A secondary consideration (in case I move to a state where this is legal) would be comfortable to carry.
I think that he has the right idea, which is ask a bunch of random gun nuts on the Internet and then go out and see which one he likes by taking them out and shooting them. Sounds like a plan to me. ;)
TGA
Quote from: The Good AssyrianI think that he has the right idea, which is ask a bunch of random gun nuts on the Internet and then go out and see which one he likes by taking them out and shooting them. Sounds like a plan to me. ;)
TGA
Really, it's the only way to go about it...
if you can afford it, S&W makes a line of titalium revolvers. SWEEEEEEEEEET!
Another factor to consider is how easy it is to add an accessory, like a laser sight, to one.
Quote from: The Good AssyrianYeah, its been a while for me, too. I still haven't had a chance to fire the .45-.70 converted Lee Enfield carbine I got a while ago for dealing with polar bears (it's a long story). My shoulder isn't looking forward to that experience!
Maybe this weekend I will get some ammo and head out to the range.
My FN-FAL needs a workout, but don't know if I can find a range with ENOUGH range to give it a good going-over. :)
God, I love that gun. Once it warms up out here I'm going. I know a couple of spots...
No, he hasn't told us, really.
Quote from: joewolzReally, I'm looking for a slim to compact 9mm that would be reasonably accurate and reasonable priced. A secondary consideration (in case I move to a state where this is legal) would be comfortable to carry.
So far all he's excluded by that definition is water pistols. He has to tell us what he wants to be able to take down, and at what range.
You can never go wrong with a BFG-9000!
(http://www.high5art.com/images/BFG.jpg)
What? ;)
Quote from: JimBobOzNo, he hasn't told us, really.
So far all he's excluded by that definition is water pistols. He has to tell us what he wants to be able to take down, and at what range.
Garry actually had it right, minus Mr. Analytical's joke...which I'll address in a moment.
I'd like a smaller weapon for personal defense, and for putting holes in paper. Mostly, I want it for the latter. The only pistol I currently own is a S&W .357 revolver, and that's really not adequate for concealed carry for when I'm in a state that allows it. Since I can only carry in a state that has reciprocity with Indiana, and I don't travel out-of-state much currently, it has't been an issue. But I'm almost done with my MA and my finacee and I are considering a move out of state.
If said state allows concealed carry, I'd like to have something comfortable to carry around, that's reasonably accurate, and won't kill me on ammo cost when I go to the range and shoot it. I assume that I will never do any shooting outside the range, so considerations for that are more important than the concealability issue.
Plus, I want a decent 9mm because I collect guns. I have far more long arms than pistols, owning only one pistol currently, and I like how 9s operate on the range.
To address Mr. Analytical, I take care not to be wild with my guns. As JimBob said, their tools, just like cars are tools. If you're into cars, and want a hotrod, it can kill people just as dead as any gun if you're stupid with it. I do not have any loaded guns in my house when I'm not home, nor would I have one when I was home if my finacee did not know what to do with it, either, she's been through the same safety and shooting courses I have...they make for interesting dates.
Quote from: Dominus Noxif you can afford it, S&W makes a line of titalium revolvers. SWEEEEEEEEEET!
Another factor to consider is how easy it is to add an accessory, like a laser sight, to one.
The titanium revolvers I've fired were S&W, I didn't like them in any caliber bigger than .38 Special. Firing such a light weapon with a hot cartridge is begging for sore wrists!
I'm also not a fan of laser sights, I much prefer the glowing cat's eye sights.
Well, I hate to be unoriginal, but I would nominate the good old Browning (9mm) High Power. It's just shy of eight inches long, a couple of pounds loaded, so it's a bit chunky but should be fine with a decent holster. It's reliable, fairly easy to maintain, and has been a military weaon for yonks so you'll easily be able to find one, and find a decent one cheap at that. And of course because it's a common one, there'll be a lot of knowledge and useful advice for you down at your gun club on maintaining and optimising it.
The trigger pull is a bit of a bitch because of the safety features on it, but since more Americans are killed by accidental discharge of firearms than in self-defence (800 vs 600 each year), I consider that a feature not a bug.
For it you can get full metal-jacketed rounds at about US$9 for a 50-round box, you can use those for your target practice. For actual self-defence you can have the jacketed hollowpoints at about US$28 a box of 50, assuming those rounds are legal to load up in your concealed weapon where you are. A single hit anywhere on the body will pretty reliably take someone down with one of those, and anywhere on his double-t (tit to tit, eye to eye, and line from between the eyes to his groin) will certainly take him down. A decent vest will stop those rounds, but in general the only ones wearing vests are law enforcement and military, and if you're planning on dealing with them then I have no advice for you.
The magazine holds 13 rounds, and you can also put one up the spout, too, for 14 in all. If that's not enough for you, then either you need more time at the range practicing, or else you're firing for show to scare them off like most people do, and then it doesn't matter what kind of weapon you have, they're all equally good for show :p In any second-hand one, I would only put 10 rounds, since the magazine springs become overloaded and work-hardened after some years.
I understand S&W do a .40 version, but I've never used it and in any case don't see why you'd need to carry a cannon.
I have my own opinions on the ethics and utility of firearms, but they were not questions raised by joewolz in his original post, so to bring up the old gun control arguments here would be a threadjack. Start a new thread.
I have considered the Browning, JimBob. My uncle has one and I've shot it quite a bit. If I was buying something JUST for the range, I'd most likely follow your advice. I really enjoy shooting the BHP. I particularly like my uncle's Browning, because it has a tight twist in the rifling that makes it kick noticibly to the left. I don't know if all of them do that, since I've only shot the one.
I would worry that the weight would be burdensome if I carried it in a IWB rig...now for winter time, when I can wear a shoulder holster, that's a different story!
If it makes a difference, I want my gun purely for work (security). If I get my carry license, I'll be eligible for better postings and better pay.
So I need a weapon I can carry around all day long, learn to shoot with, and make qualifying shoots with. And it has to be (I believe) .45 or larger, so I can't get a .22 peashooter or anything.
So, easy to shoot, reliable, easy to maintain, and won't throw my hip out of whack are my basic requirements. ^_^
Quote from: joewolzI particularly like my uncle's Browning, because it has a tight twist in the rifling that makes it kick noticibly to the left. I don't know if all of them do that, since I've only shot the one.
I've fired probably twenty or so of the things - part of instructing as a Corporal - and most do have that leftwards kick, yes. Contrasts a bit with the usual kick of high and to the right.
Quote from: joewolzI would worry that the weight would be burdensome if I carried it in a IWB rig...now for winter time, when I can wear a shoulder holster, that's a different story!
Surely with an IWB rig everything bigger than some itty-bitty 22 will be a pain? I wouldn't know, the laws don't allow carrying firearms in Australia, and in the Army you bear them openly, usually on your hip like some kind of cowboy :p
I just talked to a person I know who works in private security and favours the Browning HP 9mm, and their recommendation is for some IWB holster called a "versa max 2". I would not have a clue what that is or is like, but this person swears by it, saying that it was very comfortable, and offered excellent concealment.
For a smaller firearm, the only worthwhile ones in 9mm which come to my mind and that of my friend are two,
The
Kell-Tech P-11 (not sure of the spelling). I only fired this one afternoon a few years back, but from memory and my friend's description it's a touch under 6" long, 4" high and about 1" wide, weighing a bit under 600 grammes (er... 21 oz) loaded. There's a 10 round mag on the thing. It's a bit of a plastic fantastic - but has to be for that weight. No safety, as it's a double-action with a significant trigger-pull. I think it had one of those sights with the two-lumos at back, and one at front. Accuracy is a bit crap, I couldn't do better than a 6" group at 20 yards, though I am a poor shot overall with pistols. Kicked high and right. I'd say it's suitable for self-defence in most situations you're likely to need it - close-range, against unarmoured targets. In terms of longevity, I don't think it'll be one you pass on to your grandkids, you'd probably just biff it and replace it after putting a couple of thousand rounds through it. So this is the one which is cheap and effective for a few years.
I think everyone will recommend the
Glock 17 - 9x19mm. This is pretty big at about 7 1/2" long, but is a bit lighter than the Browning HP at 900grammes/32oz. It has a lighter trigger-pull than the Browning HP. It has a shitload of rounds in the mag, 17. It has quite a kick, I found, with the usual high and to the right. It's more finely-machined than usual, so it'll give you good performance and accuracy, but will require some intense cleaning to keep it going smooth - and that cleaning will wear down the bearings and action, so after a couple of thousand rounds your accuracy and reliability will drop a bit. This is the one which is expensive, high-maintenance but high-performance for a few years. My friend says, "this is a good one, so long as some other bugger cleans it for you."
Your Browning HP won't be as cheap as the P-11, or as accurate and reliable as the Glock 17, but it'll have decent accuracy and reliability for years and years and years... I'm a "happy middle ground" kind of guy in most respects.
All I can really add to this conversation, is that my landlord who works for immigration, range instructor, and ex-marine is not a real big fan of the latest Glocks. Like JimBobOz has said this is more a matter of what the weapon is being used for and comfort and familiarity to the individual user. My landlord is recommending for the lowest common denominator and despite my handle I have very little experience with handguns. You should be able to try out a number of different models and weigh the variables of effectiveness vs. ammunition cost and find the right weapon for you personally. As a collector you must already have a wealth of information from people with similar interests locally. I'd have to weigh information from outside sources with those people personally and see if I could test the weapon before purchase. Hope you find something that suits your need.
Quote from: RedFoxI want my gun purely for work (security).
Not a hardware recommendation, but you might look into the Defensive Pistol course at Gunsite (http://www.gunsite.com/index.html). Their instruction has gotten rave reviews pretty much everywhere (including
Outside magazine, of all places.) They even rent out pistols for those of us without one.
(Shit, I kinda wanna do this myself. :D)
It runs a week and looks like it'll cost a couple grand, but if it translates into better job postings...
(The furries are arming themselves! Flee! Flee!)
Quote from: JimBobOzSo far all he's excluded by that definition is water pistols. He has to tell us what he wants to be able to take down, and at what range.
Maybe it was just because Joe was using the secret gun nut moon language, but it was pretty clear to me, at least, what kind of recommendations he was looking for. ;)
Quote from: JimBobOzWell, I hate to be unoriginal, but I would nominate the good old Browning (9mm) High Power. It's just shy of eight inches long, a couple of pounds loaded, so it's a bit chunky but should be fine with a decent holster. It's reliable, fairly easy to maintain, and has been a military weaon for yonks so you'll easily be able to find one, and find a decent one cheap at that. And of course because it's a common one, there'll be a lot of knowledge and useful advice for you down at your gun club on maintaining and optimising it.
I think that the Browning is a *very* fine choice for a pistol, for all of the reasons that you outlined. However, depending on how important the issue of concealment is to Joe's purchasing plans, the Browning may be a bit bulky.
Toting around a gun all day in a concealment holster can be actually quite uncomfortable, especially if the gun is largish and the holster is not appropriate for your body type. Spending a bit of time and money in getting a quality holster is an excellent investment in my opinion. There is also issues such as climate to be considered. For example, in warm weather states like Texas using a shoulder holster is not a practical option most times of the year, unless you like to suffer and want to look like a bank executive or G-man at all times. The Browning may be OK in a shoulder holster, but on balance I would recommend a smaller gun in most situations requiring concealment.
There are trade offs, of course. To get a truly slim and small gun you are looking at a .380, which I would never personally bet my life with in a self defense situation, or a 9mm or .40 S&W with a single stack magazine. You are trading comfort and concealment for ammo capacity. That is why I recommended the Kahr pistols to Joe. They are surprisingly small, very well-made, and have worked out well for me. I had also considered buying one of the "baby Glocks", the Glock 26 (9mm) or Glock 27 (.40 S&W), but they have a double stack mag and were too bulky for me. They also didn't feel right as they have a stubby grip that leaves the pinky finger hanging free. As always, YMMV.
TGA
Quote from: WerekoalaMy FN-FAL needs a workout, but don't know if I can find a range with ENOUGH range to give it a good going-over. :)
God, I love that gun. Once it warms up out here I'm going. I know a couple of spots...
You lucky bastard! The FN-FAL is one of my favorite guns of all time, and is currently the only thing left on my gun nut Christmas list. :D
I imagine that you can find a few places in Utah with some long views and nothing for miles that could give that FAL a good workout. Same in Texas. i have a friend with a ranch and we used to go out there all the time for weekend shoots.
TGA
Quote from: JimBobOzSurely with an IWB rig everything bigger than some itty-bitty 22 will be a pain?
Not really. There are some excellent compact and slim 9mm pistols now that there are a number of states in the US with concealed carry laws. Over the last decade or so gun manufacturers have responded to this increasing demand for small, slim pistols and there are a number choices available now. The best thing for the prospective gun buyer to do is to go out and try a few.
Quote from: JimBobOzI think everyone will recommend the Glock 17 - 9x19mm...It's more finely-machined than usual, so it'll give you good performance and accuracy, but will require some intense cleaning to keep it going smooth - and that cleaning will wear down the bearings and action, so after a couple of thousand rounds your accuracy and reliability will drop a bit. This is the one which is expensive, high-maintenance but high-performance for a few years. My friend says, "this is a good one, so long as some other bugger cleans it for you."
That has not been my experience with the Glock at all. It is actually quite easy to clean and maintain for an automatic pistol. It is certainly much simpler to disassemble and clean than older designs like the Colt .45 Government Model or the Browning. I have had mine for more than a decade and there has been no degradation of accuracy or reliability.
TGA
Quote from: RedFoxIf it makes a difference, I want my gun purely for work (security). If I get my carry license, I'll be eligible for better postings and better pay.
So I need a weapon I can carry around all day long, learn to shoot with, and make qualifying shoots with. And it has to be (I believe) .45 or larger, so I can't get a .22 peashooter or anything.
So, easy to shoot, reliable, easy to maintain, and won't throw my hip out of whack are my basic requirements. ^_^
.45 or larger?? Handguns don't get much bigger than that, and most states require security guards to carry .38s or 9mms.
EDIT: I can't find anyplace where it says that CA only allows certain calibers, just that you have to carry the same caliber you qualified with. Interesting.
Quote from: fonkaygarryKilling people who want to hurt him. Same thing that all handguns are made for.
Now now, we all know that law-abiding citizens don't try to kill anyone. He wants to
stop people who want to hurt him.
Quote from: Dominus Noxif you can afford it, S&W makes a line of titalium revolvers. SWEEEEEEEEEET!
They make scandium revolvers that are even sweeter, and lighter. They run about $800-900 around here though, which is more than I'm allowed to spend.
Quote from: The Good AssyrianYou lucky bastard! The FN-FAL is one of my favorite guns of all time, and is currently the only thing left on my gun nut Christmas list. :D
I imagine that you can find a few places in Utah with some long views and nothing for miles that could give that FAL a good workout. Same in Texas. i have a friend with a ranch and we used to go out there all the time for weekend shoots.
Yes indeed - I fell in love with that gun in the 80's. It just LOOKS like it means business. I finally convinced my (thankfully now ex-) wife to let me buy it a few years back. Its just a big ol' slab of sexy steel with a 9x scope on it. Mmmmm.....
You know JimBob, after sleeping on it I realize your recommendation for a Browning High Power just might be the ticket! It's a bit too heavy to carry, but I can't carry in Illinois, so it will be a range gun for at least another two years.
In two years I can buy a new "carry" gun if I get to a sane state (all you non-US people may now laugh) I'll pick up something smaller. I've fired the Browning a lot more than the XD9 or any other gun mentioned here, so I have a better idea of what it does.
The jury is still out on my final decision, as I like to discuss guns with gamers, we're all a LOT more imaginitive thangun people.
Cool, Joe! Let us know how it turns out!
TGA
Quote from: joewolzYou know JimBob, after sleeping on it I realize your recommendation for a Browning High Power just might be the ticket! It's a bit too heavy to carry, but I can't carry in Illinois, so it will be a range gun for at least another two years.
Haven't read all the above, but I'll chime in as well.
Go with the High Power, nice sweet single action trigger, good mag capacity, points wonderfully. And it's a classic. Can be had in either 9mm or .40 S&W. Perfect for a range gun, not back for a bedside gun (or even a carry gun in cold weather) although Like revolvers better on that score.
Two points against:
1. If you shoot revolvers double action, you may want a double action semi-auto as well.
2. The mag safety is a pain. You may need a good gunsmith to give the pistol an once over to make it smooth.
Quote from: joewolzYou know JimBob, after sleeping on it I realize your recommendation for a Browning High Power just might be the ticket! It's a bit too heavy to carry, but I can't carry in Illinois, so it will be a range gun for at least another two years.
Oh right, I'd forgotten that. But the maze of US firearms laws is simply too much for me, in my nice simple country of only six states and two territories ;)
Quote from: joewolzThe jury is still out on my final decision, as I like to discuss guns with gamers, we're all a LOT more imaginitive thangun people.
Now that I think on it, as gamers we have failed you.
Real gamers would have said you should buy yourself twin 50 cal Desert Eagles.
Quote from: JimBobOzNow that I think on it, as gamers we have failed you. Real gamers would have said you should buy yourself twin 50 cal Desert Eagles.
Well to be fair, Jong *did* try... :D
Quote from: JongWKYou can never go wrong with a BFG-9000!
(http://www.high5art.com/images/BFG.jpg)
Quote from: One Horse TownAs an Englishman, i still have to give a double-take when i see threads like this. :D
Even as an American I do. Raised among sport hunters with shotguns in the house, too.
!i!
I think it's freaky shit, too. But as I said earlier, that would be another thread. These days I am trying to stick to the topic at hand, it makes discussuions go more smoothly. Start a new thread on "crazy Americans and their guns" and I'll be right in it :D
Quote from: The Good AssyrianYou lucky bastard! The FN-FAL is one of my favorite guns of all time, and is currently the only thing left on my gun nut Christmas list. :D
I imagine that you can find a few places in Utah with some long views and nothing for miles that could give that FAL a good workout. Same in Texas. i have a friend with a ranch and we used to go out there all the time for weekend shoots.
TGA
By Sargon's Imperial Balls, TGA... you know you can borrow mine any time you want.
(http://www.brassbricks.com/images/shooty/blaster.jpg)
It's not as "old-fashioned OEM" as I know your tastes run, but it's FAL enough. Jeebus knows I'm not shooting it nearly enough. Oh, and to satisfy the curiosity of the subjects of Her Majesty the Queen... I have it for when the zombies come.
Quote from: JimBobOzNow that I think on it, as gamers we have failed you. Real gamers would have said you should buy yourself twin 50 cal Desert Eagles.
I rented one of thsoe on Xmas eve, and lemme tell you right now: if you don't have really strong wrists, don't bother with a Desert Eagle.
Every time I shot the fucking thing, the cases hit me right in the face. Six out of Seven rounds in the clip, the shell would hit me in the fave. I had one (really minor) burn and a ton of black smudges on my face from shooting that damn thing. And my hand hurt like hell all day.
Not a fun weapon.
It did make my dick feel eight feet long while I was holding it, though. :D
Quote from: joewolzI rented one of thsoe on Xmas eve, and lemme tell you right now: if you don't have really strong wrists, don't bother with a Desert Eagle.
Every time I shot the fucking thing, the cases hit me right in the face. Six out of Seven rounds in the clip, the shell would hit me in the fave. I had one (really minor) burn and a ton of black smudges on my face from shooting that damn thing. And my hand hurt like hell all day.
Not a fun weapon.
It did make my dick feel eight feet long while I was holding it, though. :D
Ditto all above - the few times I've fired one, it was like shooting a 2" x 4".
Quote from: spearweaselDitto all above - the few times I've fired one, it was like shooting a 2" x 4".
Say, is your avatar the bandit from "Rashomon"? Kinda looks like it....
Quote from: Dominus NoxSay, is your avatar the bandit from "Rashomon"? Kinda looks like it....
It's the same actor, Toshiro Mifune (http://imdb.com/name/nm0001536/). The image is actually from Seven Samurai (http://imdb.com/title/tt0047478/), though. Isn't that the best facial expression ever?
Quote from: spearweaselIt's the same actor, Toshiro Mifune (http://imdb.com/name/nm0001536/). The image is actually from Seven Samurai (http://imdb.com/title/tt0047478/), though. Isn't that the best facial expression ever?
Not bad, SW, now bad.
There was a movie called "Attack!" in which Jack Palance (RIP) did a death grimace that would be hard to beat.
Quote from: JimBobOzNow that I think on it, as gamers we have failed you. Real gamers would have said you should buy yourself twin 50 cal Desert Eagles.
You forgot that they need to be chrome, (or non-reflective, one or the other) with extended clips, laser sights, with some sort of fast loading rig for after you burn through the first pair of mags, and of course, somehow you are supposed to put working silencers on them... :D
Quote from: Technomancer.45 or larger?? Handguns don't get much bigger than that, and most states require security guards to carry .38s or 9mms.
EDIT: I can't find anyplace where it says that CA only allows certain calibers, just that you have to carry the same caliber you qualified with. Interesting.
I typoed! Should be a
.38 or better.
What's your budget? You could probably swing a reconditioned Ruger Security Six for about half what a new handgun would run you.
Quote from: fonkaygarryWhat's your budget? You could probably swing a reconditioned Ruger Security Six for about half what a new handgun would run you.
I'd like to keep under $200 if that's possible, but I don't want that to mean I get stuck with a crap gun.
Quote from: RedFoxI'd like to keep under $200 if that's possible, but I don't want that to mean I get stuck with a crap gun.
I don't know if under $200 is possible for a quality piece. You get a lot of crap firearms at that price point. Google Phoenix Arms for a look at how
not to manufacture pistols.
A used handgun buyer's guide (http://www.chuckhawks.com/used_handgun.htm) should help you know what to look for when you walk through the doors of your Friendly Local Gun Store.
Ruger has instruction manuals for their firearms up for download (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/PS-InstructionManuals.html). This is invaluable reading material, even if you don't end up purchasing a Ruger.
You can try for a surplus colt. 45 1911, the army sold a lot of them and they were quality.
One gun I think should be avoided is the infamous luger or nazi fame, even tho the nazis had switched to the P-38 in ww2 because the luger, while accurate, powerful and having great ergonomics, was terrible unreliable in battlefield conditions.
Quote from: Dominus NoxOne gun I think should be avoided is the infamous luger or nazi fame, even tho the nazis had switched to the P-38 in ww2 because the luger, while accurate, powerful and having great ergonomics, was terrible unreliable in battlefield conditions.
That's a lie, a very common lie, about the Luger. I will go and get sources for you if you want, but suffice to say that the real reason the Luger was replaced by the Walther was cost of manufacture. The P38 is about the same quality of firearm, just not as ergonomic.
Quote from: RedFoxI'd like to keep under $200 if that's possible, but I don't want that to mean I get stuck with a crap gun.
I don't know where you live, but I'm out in the sticks of Illinois, and we have a very low cost of living. Therefore, the guns stores around here have really good used firearms for about $200. I'll gladly look arund here for you hand handle an FFL transfer for you.
Quote from: joewolzThat's a lie, a very common lie, about the Luger. I will go and get sources for you if you want, but suffice to say that the real reason the Luger was replaced by the Walther was cost of manufacture. The P38 is about the same quality of firearm, just not as ergonomic.
Historian or not, I'll stick to my guns on this issue. The luger jammed a lot due to it's complex mechanism, and did so an an unacceptable rate in battlefield conditions. (I.E. rough handling, dirt, etc.)
Now the P-38 may have been adopted as a replacement due to it's cost, but the luger was replaced due to it's habit of jamming too often.
I have a Baretta 92F, but would not recommend it. Its a decent gun if your shooting factory loads, but you might as well be throwing rocks if you are going to try and shoot reloads.
Quote from: Dominus NoxHistorian or not, I'll stick to my guns on this issue. The luger jammed a lot due to it's complex mechanism, and did so an an unacceptable rate in battlefield conditions. (I.E. rough handling, dirt, etc.)
Now the P-38 may have been adopted as a replacement due to it's cost, but the luger was replaced due to it's habit of jamming too often.
Sticking to your guns doesn't make you right. It's mechanism isnt all that complex, outside of the Desert Eagle most automatic pistols have a very straightforward design: the Luger included.
I haven't read anything reliable that stated the Luger jammed any more than the P38 on the battlefield. German guns from the period tend to have that problem.
Quote from: joewolzSticking to your guns doesn't make you right. It's mechanism isnt all that complex, outside of the Desert Eagle most automatic pistols have a very straightforward design: the Luger included.
I haven't read anything reliable that stated the Luger jammed any more than the P38 on the battlefield. German guns from the period tend to have that problem.
Check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol
Also here under the bit about the US Army adopting the colt 1911.
http://www.tdasys.com/the_bengal_club/bisrev06.asp
This site has a box with a summary of the luger 9mm pistol.
http://www.swelt.demon.co.uk/descpro.htm
Quote from: Dominus NoxCheck this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol)
Also here under the bit about the US Army adopting the colt 1911.
http://www.tdasys.com/the_bengal_club/bisrev06.asp (http://www.tdasys.com/the_bengal_club/bisrev06.asp)
I certainly won't argue with you on the adoption of the M1911, although I can expand upon it. That's an awesome pistol, and should have been refined instead of being ditched for the Beretta 92FS.
I don't trust Wikipedia, but that's okay. The Luger argument comes from a bit of bad weapons history being propagated by lazy or amateur historians. German records are very clear on the subject: the P38 had the same, acceptable, problems as the Luger, but was about 1/2 as much to make. This is not to put a value judgement on either weapon. I've fired both and found them to be in excellent working condition for weapons made sixty years ago. I haven't ever fired a gun on "battlefield conditions" however, so I can't judge personally.
I'll dredge up some sources for you on Monday, in English if I can, to back my side up. I'll try to make sure they're online, but I'll provide library reference numbers for you if I can't.
Quote from: joewolzI certainly won't argue with you on the adoption of the M1911, although I can expand upon it. That's an awesome pistol, and should have been refined instead of being ditched for the Beretta 92FS.
I don't trust Wikipedia, but that's okay. The Luger argument comes from a bit of bad weapons history being propagated by lazy or amateur historians. German records are very clear on the subject: the P38 had the same, acceptable, problems as the Luger, but was about 1/2 as much to make. This is not to put a value judgement on either weapon. I've fired both and found them to be in excellent working condition for weapons made sixty years ago. I haven't ever fired a gun on "battlefield conditions" however, so I can't judge personally.
I'll dredge up some sources for you on Monday, in English if I can, to back my side up. I'll try to make sure they're online, but I'll provide library reference numbers for you if I can't.
The thing is (trying to be civil here) I've seen a luger fired, and the way that exposed assembly on top racks back and forth, up and down just looks like it's be very, very vulnerable to dirt, grit and dust getting into it because it's totally exposed instead of enclosed.
Quote from: Dominus NoxThe thing is (trying to be civil here) I've seen a luger fired, and the way that exposed assembly on top racks back and forth, up and down just looks like it's be very, very vulnerable to dirt, grit and dust getting into it because it's totally exposed instead of enclosed.
It does look that way. And it is sensitive to dirt if you drop it, or maybe if you're in a sandstorm. But so is almost every other gun from the period.
Quote from: joewolzIt does look that way. And it is sensitive to dirt if you drop it, or maybe if you're in a sandstorm. But so is almost every other gun from the period.
Well, the colt .45 was developed a while after the original luger, I admit, but it had a rep for being able to fire reliably after being used to drive nails. ;)
Really, a military weapon meant to see use "in the field" must be reliable and easy to maintain above all else. That's why the AK-47 is thw world's most produced gun.
Joe,
I showed my Dad a printout of the first page of this thread day before yesterday - his only response was to suggest several new 9mm handguns and pistols that Ruger just came out with.
- E.W.C.
Rugers? Do you have a specifics? I'm going to my Friendly Local (to my parent's house anyway) Gun Store ina few weeks, and I'm renting a few of the suggestions here.
Rugers are excellent reliable guns for the shooter on a budget. They call them the poor man's Glock. They're kind of bulky and not all that great for concealed carry though, which I think was something Joe was looking for.
Quote from: TechnomancerRugers are excellent relaible guns for the shooter on a budget. They call the the poor man's Glock. They're kind of bulky and not all that great for concealed carry though, which I think was something Joe was looking for.
I'll go look at the ad /newsletter Dad showed me. Might not be able to post until Monday about it. I'm going to be at a Sci-Fi convention all weekend.
- E.W.C.