Quote from: Headless;1026933Vulture was great.

Which is imo, entirely due to Keaton's performance.  He made the character feel real, compared to Happy Hogan who comes across as a caricature due to a lack of serious talent as opposed to comedic talent.

Happy hogan?

Yeah Vulture was almost entirely Keaton.  Its a pretty bland set up but Keaton fills it with both pathos and menace.  

I think Vulture and Killmonger are both very American villians.  Obviously in very different ways.

Quote from: Headless;1026953Happy hogan?

Yeah Vulture was almost entirely Keaton.  Its a pretty bland set up but Keaton fills it with both pathos and menace.  

I think Vulture and Killmonger are both very American villians.  Obviously in very different ways.

Happy is Stark's right hand man and the buffer between himself and Spiderman.

Of the other cinematic villains, we have:

Iron Monger
The Abomination
Ivan Vanko
Loki
Red Skull
Loki

The Mandarin / Aldrich Killian
Malekith
The Winter Soldier / Alexander Pierce
Ronan
Ultron
Yellowjacket

Helmut Zemo
Kaecilius
Ego
Vulture
Killmonger

Most of these were pretty darn boring, in my opinion, with the stand-out exceptions being Loki and Vulture. (I don't count The Winter Soldier since he isn't really a villain.)

I thought Killmonger is a close third to these two. He isn't just out for revenge - he has a cause that is interesting and thought-provoking.

In general, I'd place Black Panther in my top five of the 17 MCU films. My top five being The Avengers, The Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, Spider-Man: Homecoming, and now Black Panther. That's in order of release date. Ranking among those, Black Panther isn't the best, but it's still very good.

I particularly liked the ensemble cast, the art and production design - their vision of Wakanda and its people, and the larger story arc. I thought a lot of the action wasn't that great, though, and the use of CGI often felt clunky. Plus a number of minor annoyances from being a fan of the comic.

Quote from: Koltar;1026491Better than or equal to either "Avengers" movie.

- Ed C.

I thought it was far better than the Avengers movies. I absolutely loved it. Captain America's very poignant ending puts it at a tie with Black Panther for me, but BP was overall the stronger film.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1026755I don't really get why the Killmonger character is getting such high praise. He's just another revenge-driven villain that emerges from the film hero's prehistory in a pattern that Marvel has done to death. He's not notably different from Malekith, Hela, Whiplash, or Killian.

I'd completely disagree. Most Marvel supervillains are 2D and boring, especially on screen. I never felt Hela came to life at all. Killmonger as a black supremacist Hitleresque National Socialist was a really powerful character I thought, especially because the audience were invited to sympathise with his grievances while ultimately rejecting his message.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1026949Which is imo, entirely due to Keaton's performance.  He made the character feel real, compared to Happy Hogan who comes across as a caricature due to a lack of serious talent as opposed to comedic talent.

Yeah, Vulture was a great character, but Keaton's acting had to be a huge part of that.

I didn't read Killmonger as a black suprimist.  Just black vengeance.  But if you say thats a distinction with out a difference I won't argue.

Quote from: S'mon;1027124I'd completely disagree. Most Marvel supervillains are 2D and boring, especially on screen. I never felt Hela came to life at all. Killmonger as a black supremacist Hitleresque National Socialist was a really powerful character I thought, especially because the audience were invited to sympathise with his grievances while ultimately rejecting his message.

Hela worked for me. She was the cast aside child that had actually played a major role in building up what would become Asgard but was then found to be too rough around the edges to be kept around once Asgard started to shine. She really showed the ugly side of Asgard and she had a better reason to be personally bitter than Killmonger ever did ("your daddy killed my daddy" isn't very interesting to me), and I never got any impression that Killmonger really gave a shit beyond anyone but himself despite his claims to the contrary.

Quote from: S'mon;1027125Yeah, Vulture was a great character, but Keaton's acting had to be a huge part of that.

Doesn't that line of reasoning apply to just about all of the characters? What's left of Loki without Hiddleson or Killmonger without Jordan?

Quote from: Headless;1027206I didn't read Killmonger as a black suprimist.  Just black vengeance.  But if you say thats a distinction with out a difference I won't argue.

He didn't just want to kill non-blacks, he wanted to rule them too. He was about as straightforwardly racial supremacist as any character I've ever seen.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1027237Doesn't that line of reasoning apply to just about all of the characters? What's left of Loki without Hiddleson or Killmonger without Jordan?

I'd certainly agree re Loki. I think Killmonger was well written as well as well acted.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1027235Hela worked for me. She was the cast aside child that had actually played a major role in building up what would become Asgard but was then found to be too rough around the edges to be kept around once Asgard started to shine. She really showed the ugly side of Asgard and she had a better reason to be personally bitter than Killmonger ever did ("your daddy killed my daddy" isn't very interesting to me), and I never got any impression that Killmonger really gave a shit beyond anyone but himself despite his claims to the contrary.

I guess I just can't take Marvel's mangling of Norse mythology seriously when it's so much lamer than the real thing.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1027237Doesn't that line of reasoning apply to just about all of the characters? What's left of Loki without Hiddleson or Killmonger without Jordan?

Even with good actors, Iron Monger, Whiplash and Killian were boring as fuck. Likewise Pierce and Abomination were very flat.

Loki, Hela and Ultron were pretty good, Vulture was great and Malikith and Ronan are just a fucking mess.

I don't even remember Killian.