Quote from: David R;352439Over here in real life, I guess the Indians, Africans and a whole bunch of other savages should have just stopped fighting their Imperial Overlords because they should have just realized their lives under them was shitloads better than their lives of savagery.

In some ways, the 18th and 19th century Imperialist "powers" were less civilized than the Romans. They sought to exploit the people they colonized without also giving them the benefits of civilization. The Romans went as far as to extend citizenship rights.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not in favour of 19th-century style colonialism; I think it was done very wrongly, and resulted in many of the serious problems we face today.

QuoteA gamer quoting Monty Python.....

Regards,
David R

I recognize the stereotype. But that does nothing to take away from its absolute validity as far as my point is concerned.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Axiomatic;352446The Na'vi have a place where they store all the knowledge and wisdom of all their ancestors for probably longer than humans have known about how to sharpen stones.

And yet, in spite of this Mystic Wikipedia, the Navi still hadn't developed very much beyond sharpening stones...

QuoteAs for what humanity could learn from the Na'vi...WHAT ABOUT IMMORTALITY? Shit, clone yourself a new body and get the biointernet to transfer your mind into it. Congratulations, humanity, if you manage to refrain from blowing up a tree because you're shortsighted morons, YOU CAN BE IMMORTAL. YOU CAN DEFEAT DEATH.

Well now, see, that would have been a far more interesting movie at least; if you had presented the humans as capable of learning the real value of the whole Navi Magic Wikipedia; and if in turn the Navi learned the value of human knowledge to allow them to reach to the stars; the two races coming to understand that their destinies were intertwined in co-operation.

But that wasn't the movie, or the message, we were given.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Edsan;352447Ahem...

From the Wikipedia:

A civilization (or civilisation) is a complex society or culture group characterized by dependence upon agriculture, long-distance trade, state form of government, occupational specialization, urbanism, and class stratification. Aside from these core elements, civilization is often marked by any combination of a number of secondary elements, including a developed transportation system, writing, standards of measurement (currency, etc.), formal legal system, great art style, monumental architecture, mathematics, sophisticated metallurgy, and astronomy.


I didn't see a lot of those in Na'vi society...I did see a lot of wishy-washy, new-age, usb-port-tree worshipping.

So that about settles the fact that the Na'vi aren't civilized. They have a culture, of course; but at the end of the day they are just a bunch of savages.

Ahem, I don't really buy into this whole civilization/culture distinction (and certainly not the Pundit's defintion) esp when it's used to support a concept such as Imperialism.

And I see a lot of tree worshipping in the various indegenous populations around my country and the rest of the world and strangely enough, for them there's nothing new agey about their religions or culture.

And I guess savages need to be "civilzed, more :rolleyes:

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;352461Ahem, I don't really buy into this whole civilization/culture distinction

Dude, no one was chalenging your beliefs, you can believe the flying spagheti moster for all I care. I was just making definitions clear because some people seem to think culture and civilization mean the same thing...they don't.

Quote from: David R;352461And I see a lot of tree worshipping in the various indegenous populations around my country and the rest of the world and strangely enough, for them there's nothing new agey about their religions or culture.

I believe you. However the Na'vi are new agey dialed up to 11, and it was them that were being discussed. I fail to see what those IRL native folk have to do with fictional 10ft tall aliens.

Quote from: David R;352461And I guess savages need to be "civilzed, more :rolleyes:

David, there might just be hope for you yet. You are begining to see the light.

Quote from: David R;352439Maybe it's Humanity that needs to learn something from the Navi. Or rather the message is, we can learn things form other cultures or civilizations or something like that.

Maybe that's my problem with the movie, one of them at least - nobody LEARNED anything. One of the narrative outcomes of most stories is that there is growth of character for someone. I don't really know if Jake's "transformation" counts as character growth or not because we don't know much about who he was before arriving on Pandora. Humans didn't learn to respect the Na'vi. I suppose the Na'vi learned to hate humans, but they were already well into that anyway. In effect, all that really happened was to kill a bunch of both people on both sides and send the humans packing. They'll be back. They always come back. And then the Na'vi will likely be wiped out.

Still think a better ending could have been had.

Quote from: Edsan;352465Dude, no one was chalenging your beliefs, you can believe the flying spagheti moster for all I care. I was just making definitions clear because some people seem to think culture and civilization mean the same thing...they don't.

You were making definitions clear using a self-selecting Wikipedia entry.  In other words, the victor not only writes the history, they write the dictionary.

For instance, that definition didn't cite 'careful marshaling of natural resources', 'respectful co-existence with indigenous peoples', 'measured levels of progress that limit harm', to name but a few; what they did cite, however, is money, class boundaries, job specialization, centralized government, and a 'developed transportation system'.  So, unsurprisingly, all the things that authour thinks define 'civilization' are all the things that mark our current civilization, and none of the things that mark earlier tribal or current 'primitive' civilizations.

You have to wonder why that is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;352460And yet, in spite of this Mystic Wikipedia, the Navi still hadn't developed very much beyond sharpening stones...

At least your 'iPod = civilization' mantra is consistent.

Quote from: RPGPundit;352459In some ways, the 18th and 19th century Imperialist "powers" were less civilized than the Romans. They sought to exploit the people they colonized without also giving them the benefits of civilization. The Romans went as far as to extend citizenship rights.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not in favour of 19th-century style colonialism; I think it was done very wrongly, and resulted in many of the serious problems we face today.

I wonder what "benefits" of civilization the Imperial powers had to offer since the colonialism itself was predicated on greed and racism. Thinking less of the "other" generally means you don't think he is worthy of "your" culture. I think it rather twee that anyone would think that 19th century colonialism could be done "a right way", unless you mean some sort of cross transmission of cultural ideas, which I think is the best method, to reach some sort of understanding and profit.

QuoteI recognize the stereotype. But that does nothing to take away from its absolute validity as far as my point is concerned.

RPGPundit

Brother, we all say this .

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Edsan;352465Dude, no one was chalenging your beliefs, you can believe the flying spagheti moster for all I care. I was just making definitions clear because some people seem to think culture and civilization mean the same thing...they don't.

You do understand that I am rejecting those definitons that you think are so clear ?

QuoteI believe you. However the Na'vi are new agey dialed up to 11, and it was them that were being discussed. I fail to see what those IRL native folk have to do with fictional 10ft tall aliens.

Then tell that to the Pundit. This whole idea of noble savages and real world examples of "civilizations" was something he brought into the discussion. I happen to think he makes interesting points even though I disagree with them. Of course the new agey was dialled up. But I think it's a mistake (considering his past films) to think of Cameron as anti civilization and anti humanism. Of course as I said upthread, there's very little defense against empty headed Hollywood religion.

QuoteDavid, there might just be hope for you yet. You are begining to see the light.

You mistake me for one of those cats with a sense of humour when it comes to these kinds of issues.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Werekoala;352468Maybe that's my problem with the movie, one of them at least - nobody LEARNED anything.
Still think a better ending could have been had.

I think this is a good point. I'd have to expose my near fanboyish admiration for Cameron if I say anything beyond this.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Werekoala;352468Still think a better ending could have been had.

A more dramatic ending would have had Jake dying in the lab, eyes wide open, while Neytiri is trying to wake up his dormant avatar. That's a Titanic-grade tear jerker right there.

Of course, that would probably screw up Cameron's plans for the sequels, which given the monstrous box office results are a near certainty.

Quote from: David R;352461Ahem, I don't really buy into this whole civilization/culture distinction (and certainly not the Pundit's defintion) esp when it's used to support a concept such as Imperialism.

And I see a lot of tree worshipping in the various indegenous populations around my country and the rest of the world and strangely enough, for them there's nothing new agey about their religions or culture.

And I'm sure that if you examined their beliefs more closely you'd find that they'd have very little in common with the Navi Hollywood-pantheism.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David R;352485I wonder what "benefits" of civilization the Imperial powers had to offer since the colonialism itself was predicated on greed and racism.

I think that there was a lot of greed and racism involved, to be sure, and sadly in the end those forces dominated the colonialism of the 19th century. But there were motives besides that as well.

As to the question of "benefits"; I think that pretty much every other society on earth has ended up benefiting from western civilization at this point. The whole concept of "human rights" is something that exists in the form it has today thanks to this civilization. Many of the ex-colonial nations are still benefiting, long after their liberation, from the developments in infrastructure, education, health, government/civil service, and both the liberal arts and sciences that were transmitted by the west; and pretty well all of those who in their anti-colonial zeal threw out those babies along with the bathwater of oppression have ultimately come to regret it.

Curiously, we now stand at the beginning of a century where a former western-colony, India, is poised to become a major world power, and had it not been from the influence of the west on that country, this would neither have been possible, nor if possible would it have been even remotely positive for the world.

And yes, the West also got back a great deal from those colonies, and I'm not just talking about stolen resources or wealth. I think it could have gained a lot more than what it did, had the western powers been less greedy and racist in their handling of things.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;352609Curiously, we now stand at the beginning of a century where a former western-colony, India, is poised to become a major world power, and had it not been from the influence of the west on that country, this would neither have been possible, nor if possible would it have been even remotely positive for the world.

Are you fucking serious?

Quote from: RPGPundit;352606And I'm sure that if you examined their beliefs more closely you'd find that they'd have very little in common with the Navi Hollywood-pantheism.

RPGPundit

That's because the Navi are a ficitonal race. I'm sure you would find similarities too but at the end of the day we are talking about blue skinned aliens, here.

Regards,
David R