Ok, I'm sorry here, but if 20 years ago you had 1 in 2000 kids being diagnosed as autistic, and now you have 1 in 150 girls and 1 in 94 boys, then something has gone seriously loopy.

And frankly, I don't think its the mercury in our vaccines. I think its that in the old days, "autism" meant "Rain Man", it meant someone who was so obviously fucked up through no fault of their own that you understood it. It was, in other words, a real diagnosis.

Today, if a kid acts a little antisocial, or is just a freak, he's "autistic". Every asshole who doesn't know how to interact like a normal human being gets to say he's "autistic".

You want to shit your pants in public, not bathe, and bite other adults when you don't get your own way? Sure, now you can do so, because you just have to say you have "aspergers".

I'm willing to bet that if only 0.0005% of the population used to be autistic, and now 0.0080% is, that's because at least 0.0070% of it is bullshit; its people who are worthless sacks of shit making excuses for themselves, or mommy and daddy making excuses for why their precious little angels can't help being fuckwits.

I mean shit, even if you assume there are DOUBLE the cases of Autism that there were 20 years ago, that still means you have seven times as many people as that who are just faking it.

RPGPundit

Wow. My son's genuinely autistic, and I'm honestly not sure how to feel about the above. He doesn't exhibit any of the antisocial behaviors you mention, he just works differently than everyone else. You, and the other people who feel this way are probably onto something about people using it as an excuse.

In my son's case, he's got a one track mind about sea creatures, which gives him an encyclopedic knowledge of them. He's easily overwhelmed by emotional stimuli, and he exhibits "stimming" or repetitive movements to calm his nerves. He can hold a conversation perfectly well at a level at or above his age, but he often takes his sweet time to reply, as he thinks it over or works up the courage to speak.

Other than that he's a gentle, sweet kid. I have no doubt that as he grows up he'll overcome a lot of it. We don't let him use it as an excuse, and don't really treat it like a handicap- it's just a simple fact of life. We make reasonable accommodations, but mainly we teach him how to deal with autism in a productive way.

To be honest, the only place I've seen autistic people who fit the description you give is online.

I have no idea what causes it, and I don't worry about it. As far as I see it, autism is part of his nature. If given the choice of a "cure", I'd explain it to him and let him decide. I think that a truly different perspective can be an asset, and I wouldn't take that away from him against his will.

Psychologists and psychiatrists follow fads in diagnosis. In previous times the popular diagnosis were ADHD, Bipolar Disorder, and Juvenile Personality Disorder. Now, by your data, I'd say it was Autism - whether or not the actual condition is Autism being displayed. Most fad diagnosis seem to be blanket catch-all terms used to describe kids behaving like, well, kids.

I'm concerned about this because it coincides with the popular response that any diagnosis automatically is responded to with a pill. That is why we have classrooms full of children on Ritalin, which may or may not be healthy for their development in the long run.

Quote from: Monster Manuel;281488Wow. My son's genuinely autistic, and I'm honestly not sure how to feel about the above. He doesn't exhibit any of the antisocial behaviors you mention, he just works differently than everyone else. You, and the other people who feel this way are probably onto something about people using it as an excuse.

In my son's case, he's got a one track mind about sea creatures, which gives him an encyclopedic knowledge of them. He's easily overwhelmed by emotional stimuli, and he exhibits "stimming" or repetitive movements to calm his nerves. He can hold a conversation perfectly well at a level at or above his age, but he often takes his sweet time to reply, as he thinks it over or works up the courage to speak.

Other than that he's a gentle, sweet kid. I have no doubt that as he grows up he'll overcome a lot of it. We don't let him use it as an excuse, and don't really treat it like a handicap- it's just a simple fact of life. We make reasonable accommodations, but mainly we teach him how to deal with autism in a productive way.

To be honest, the only place I've seen autistic people who fit the description you give is online.

I have no idea what causes it, and I don't worry about it. As far as I see it, autism is part of his nature. If given the choice of a "cure", I'd explain it to him and let him decide. I think that a truly different perspective can be an asset, and I wouldn't take that away from him against his will.

I assume you got at least two different diagnoses from two different doctors?

Autism, REAL autism, isn't as far as I understand something you can just "grow out of", at least, it didn't use to be. It used to be that "autistic" was the definition you'd give for someone who would have to spend the rest of their life being cared for by someone else, because their mental state did not allow them to really function independently.

Also, I'm definitely not autistic, but when I was a kid I was obsessed (at different times) with Dinosaurs, ancient mythology, and world capitals. I had a friend who was obssesed with Cars, and another who was obsessed with fishing. Kids, especially boys, get obsessed with stuff they think is cool.
Lots of people also have tics (I know at least a couple of gamers who are not autistic but have slight nervous tics), or who pace, or do other weird things.  Some of them don't even end up thinking they're allowed to be social misfits as a result!

I mean, does your son do anything else? Does he have real cognitive difficulties? Is he incapable of understanding ordinary human behaviours despite repetitive instruction?

If you tell me your kid is autistic, I guess I have to take your word for it (assuming you've MEDICALLY diagnosed that, and its not just because some fuckwit school psychologist or social worker said so).

But the fact is that many of the people I've seen claiming that they're autistic are just assholes looking for an excuse.  As for those who've said their kids are autistic, even some who have gotten a single diagnosis of such, seem to me in many to just have kids that are weird little kids; and by defining them for the REST OF THEIR LIVES as autistics they are raising them in a way that will socially cripple their kids un-necessarily.

I'm not saying that's specifically the case with you. But I think that regardless, I'm afraid that real Autistics and their families have, due mostly to douchebags who have misappropriated the disorder, lost the right to be taken at face value for anything they claim over the internet.
Sorry.

RPGPundit

Pundit, your statistics for how many kids are faking it sound... how shall I put this...  well, like total bullshit that you just made up off the top of your head.  

Moreover, your rant smack of the idea that psychiatry of twenty years ago was sensible -- while today's is bullshit.  I don't agree at all.  Twenty years ago, we would much more readily toss problem kids into an institution, where they would essentially rot with no hope.  Twenty years ago, we were still in the process of getting rid of lobotomies and shock treatment.  Mental health continues to be plagued with problems, and there are problem trends -- but it is coming out of a history of incredibly inhumane treatment.  

These days, we err more on the side of trying to treat kids rather than institutionalize them.  That often goes too far, such as over-medication.  On the other hand, we also are less willing to write kids off as hopeless -- which can help some of them lead more functional lives.  

Quote from: RPGPundit;281493Autism, REAL autism, isn't as far as I understand something you can just "grow out of", at least, it didn't use to be. It used to be that "autistic" was the definition you'd give for someone who would have to spend the rest of their life being cared for by someone else, because their mental state did not allow them to really function independently.

Well, this makes it pretty explicit.  Your definition of autism is that it cannot be treated -- so those diagnosed with it should simply be institutionalized as hopeless and throw away the key.  Indeed, that's what many parents and doctors used to do.  These days, though, people are trying harder to treat it with varying degrees of success.  

The way things used to be, parents would have a problem child, and they were faced with a very difficult decision.  They would either call the kid crazy and institutionalize them, or they would just say that the kids was acting out and discipline them -- which often didn't work.  There are plenty of problems with admitting in borderline cases of home treatment, but there were also plenty of problems with institutionalizing.

Except that, used to be, this only happened in 1 of 2000 children. Now it happens in one out of every 122 children??
That means before, we'd take 16 weird kids, and say that ONE of them was autistic and put him in an institution or something; and we'd take the other 15 and say "You're weird, kid, suck it up"; and teach them how to live like normal human beings.

Now, we take ALL 16 of those kids and tell them, on the one hand, that they have a SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE CONDITION that they "can't help" so they're allowed to be as antisocial as they want to be, but then demand that regular society "incorporate them" all into everything, just as they are, even if they show a willfull determination to be anti-social.

In the past, we may have failed that 1 of the 16 by not giving him more humane treatment, and we may have failed a few of those other 15 by not giving them enough positive help.
Now, we fail all 16; some by not accepting that they're never going to be normal and treating them on the basis of what they really are, and most by telling them its "OK" to be abnormal and encouraging them to be social retards, when there's often nothing really wrong with them except that some fad-crazy social workers who've read a couple of pop-psychology books written by people with fake doctorates who use their first name after the "Dr." part have decided these poor precious special snowflakes have to have a "syndrome" because they're acting up in class and like trains too much.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;281507In the past, we may have failed that 1 of the 16 by not giving him more humane treatment, and we may have failed a few of those other 15 by not giving them enough positive help.

Now, we fail all 16; some by not accepting that they're never going to be normal and treating them on the basis of what they really are, and most by telling them its "OK" to be abnormal and encouraging them to be social retards, when there's often nothing really wrong with them except that some fad-crazy social workers who've read a couple of pop-psychology books written by people with fake doctorates who use their first name after the "Dr." part have decided these poor precious special snowflakes have to have a "syndrome" because they're acting up in class and like trains too much.

Apparently, you're assuming that there simply is no such thing as positive help.  That any treatment is inherently bullshit, and the only sensible choice is just to lock 'em up or not.  It's not just that some treatment is mishandled -- but every case of treatment is not only inherently wrong, but worse than no treatment at all.  

I'm not saying there isn't lots of bullshit that goes on in today's treatment -- but I also don't think that either the unassisted parenting or the institutionalization of twenty years ago was necessarily better.

Since ADHD and autism and so on are diagnosed at different rates in different countries over time, we have a few possibilities,

• countries and different times may actually have different rates of these problems, the cause may be cultural or physical
• countries and different times may have the same rates in reality, but some countries may underdiagnose or overdiagnose the problems

My instinct is that the latter is most likely.

Many cultures are pretty scornful of the disabled. When I was a kid our local shopkeeper had a son with cerebral palsy, there was nothing wrong with his mind but because he was physically disabled they treated him as mentally disabled, took him out of school, never talked to him properly, and so on. So he grew up pretty limited. That kind of culture is simply not going to recognise or treat problems like depression or autism and so on.

On the other hand, many cultures are overprotective of children and themselves, eager to blame abstract forces rather than themselves for troubles in their lives, want quick-fix solutions without pain and effort, and so on.

The attitude to people with problems physical or mental is key here. Once we recognise they have a problem, we can callously toss them aside, or we can dose them up with drugs and expensive treatments, or we can encourage them to their highest possible development. This attitude will affect the rates of diagnosis of problems and the way we deal with them once diagnosed.

Quote from: jeff37923;281489I'm concerned about this because it coincides with the popular response that any diagnosis automatically is responded to with a pill.

That's the same with everything, though. The first response is drugs. My town's paper had a doctor spruiking a book recently, and it was said,   Doctors, says Hungerford, could learn a thing or two from vets. "If you have (livestock) with breathing difficulties, you don't go putting them all on Ventolin - you start finding out what is wrong with them and the first thing the vet will ask is: 'What are you feeding the animal? Could your soils be depleted?' "
I mean, we don't want to go the religious nut route and reject all medicines. But it does seem that many people are taking rather a lot of pills in some countries, while in others not so much. We have to be careful how we prescribe drugs, particularly for mental illnesses.

Sometimes drugs aren't cures, they're just treating the symptoms, it can be good to ease off the drugs to see if the symptoms are still actually there. Someone prone to migraines doesn't take painkillers every day just in case, and someone prone to depression shouldn't take uppers all the time, either. But because we know much less about mental illnesses than physical illnesses, things can get a bit sloppy.

Quote from: jeff37923That is why we have classrooms full of children on Ritalin, which may or may not be healthy for their development in the long run.

I don't see how it can be good for them. If a drug affects your mood or perception of the world when your mood or perceptions are abnormal or disruptive of your life, then it affects your mood or perceptions when they're normal and don't disrupt your life. If you give a cancer-free person chemotherapy or a person with intact bones a cast, you don't help their health; nor would something like Ritalin help a child who is actually healthy.

It's a difficult thing, since as I said our understanding of mental health is so poor compared to our understanding of physical health. And of course, good health is more than the absence of all overt illnesses.

I guess I had to get pissed at you some time. That it took more than one post in that style on an issue as close to me as this should say something about how willing I am to give you the benefit of the doubt. I just woke up, so my usual polite veneer hasn't powered up.

Quote from: RPGPundit;281493I assume you got at least two different diagnoses from two different doctors?

No. I just asked a dude at a bus stop. I think he was homeless.

QuoteAutism, REAL autism, isn't as far as I understand something you can just "grow out of", at least, it didn't use to be. It used to be that "autistic" was the definition you'd give for someone who would have to spend the rest of their life being cared for by someone else, because their mental state did not allow them to really function independently.

That certainly shows what century your ideas about autism come from. Of course one ever "grows out" of autism. However, not everyone who has it has additional diagnoses (which result in the cases you mention), or has such a serious case that they never learn the coping skills that allow them to eventually live *somewhat* independently. By your standard, people with Downs Syndrome (who aren't faking it) never work for a living either- after all, all the latest literature here in 1905 says that they're incapable of it.

Clearly everyone with autism belongs in an institution. That's why people like Temple Grandin and Jason MacElwain lie tied to their beds gibbering between electroshock treatments.

I guess it was too much to ask that you actually know something about the subjects you rant about.

QuoteAlso, I'm definitely not autistic, but when I was a kid I was obsessed (at different times) with Dinosaurs, ancient mythology, and world capitals. I had a friend who was obssesed with Cars, and another who was obsessed with fishing. Kids, especially boys, get obsessed with stuff they think is cool.
Lots of people also have tics (I know at least a couple of gamers who are not autistic but have slight nervous tics), or who pace, or do other weird things.  Some of them don't even end up thinking they're allowed to be social misfits as a result!

Maybe you *are* autistic, in the sense of your original misconception about what autism is.

QuoteI mean, does your son do anything else? Does he have real cognitive difficulties? Is he incapable of understanding ordinary human behaviours despite repetitive instruction?

Of course.

QuoteIf you tell me your kid is autistic, I guess I have to take your word for it (assuming you've MEDICALLY diagnosed that, and its not just because some fuckwit school psychologist or social worker said so).

Dude- don't belittle Radar Jones' medical qualifications. He told me that when the government implanted the mind control device that they told him that people would always do that. The day my son was diagnosed was the happiest day of my life. I mean an excuse to have poor hygiene and to bite people? Who do I have to FUCK?

But you're right- I should have brought my son to you first.

QuoteBut the fact is that many of the people I've seen claiming that they're autistic are just assholes looking for an excuse.  As for those who've said their kids are autistic, even some who have gotten a single diagnosis of such, seem to me in many to just have kids that are weird little kids; and by defining them for the REST OF THEIR LIVES as autistics they are raising them in a way that will socially cripple their kids un-necessarily.

I was willing to accept this idea at first, but forgive me if it's starting to sound like white noise.

QuoteI'm not saying that's specifically the case with you. But I think that regardless, I'm afraid that real Autistics and their families have, due mostly to douchebags who have misappropriated the disorder, lost the right to be taken at face value for anything they claim over the internet.

Ok, fine.

QuoteSorry.

RPGPundit

All right.

Please note, that I'm not a "Basement Internet Warrior". I don't go from respecting someone to hating them in one thread. I'm willing to try to discuss this without the gut reactions. I'm going to leave the above as it is because frankly it makes me feel better.

However I wanted to clear one thing up. When I mentioned that my son might "grow out" of some of his behaviors, I wasn't saying that his brain would repair itself. I was saying that he might create reasonable working models of proper social behavior so he could do things like shop for himself, or hold a job. These models are consciously used things- most people can say "that guy's mad" by instinct. An autistic person may be able to come to the same conclusion by logic. They might say to themselves "That was a weird thing he just said. Let me look at his face. Ok. Red face-, frown, eyebrows... anger?" and be able to react in a similar way to someone who gets it naturally.

He may never reach the level of independence I'd like for him, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try.

Incidentally, my son isn't on any medications for autism.

That was a beautiful slapdown, MM.

I think it's best to speak in generalities on these issues. I've seen many people try to psychoanalyse someone based simply on their postings to message boards, and it never comes out good. I don't see why it'd work any better when they're trying to psychoanalyse someone's friend or relative who's not even posting here.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;281530Since ADHD and autism and so on are diagnosed at different rates in different countries over time, we have a few possibilities,

• countries and different times may actually have different rates of these problems, the cause may be cultural or physical
• countries and different times may have the same rates in reality, but some countries may underdiagnose or overdiagnose the problems

My instinct is that the latter is most likely.

The rates for a great many other diseases are diagnosed at different rates in different countries over time -- including non-infectious types such as various types of cancers, various lung diseases, and so forth.  There is also great variance in fairly objective symptoms of mental problems, such as suicide rates.  

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;281530The first response is drugs. My town's paper had a doctor spruiking a book recently, and it was said,
   Doctors, says Hungerford, could learn a thing or two from vets. "If you have (livestock) with breathing difficulties, you don't go putting them all on Ventolin - you start finding out what is wrong with them and the first thing the vet will ask is: 'What are you feeding the animal? Could your soils be depleted?' "
I mean, we don't want to go the religious nut route and reject all medicines. But it does seem that many people are taking rather a lot of pills in some countries, while in others not so much. We have to be careful how we prescribe drugs, particularly for mental illnesses.

I agree that there is over-medication.  Still, it's not like we don't have a rash of fad diets as well.

Quote from: jhkim;281539The rates for a great many other diseases are diagnosed at different rates in different countries over time

Sure. But I think physical conditions which produce illness vary a lot more than the more human conditions. Unless we're to suppose that every mental condition has purely physical causes. Which some do, but most don't.

Quote from: jhkimI agree that there is over-medication.  Still, it's not like we don't have a rash of fad diets as well.

I'm not worried about fad diets because few have long-lasting effects. People survive being fucked up for a bit. Stuff like Ritalin concerns me more since it's likely to have long-term effects. But the same goes for physical things like Botox. I can't imagine that injecting a paralysing poison into yourself has no long-term effects.

And like the doc spruiking her book said, we've a bit too much focus on cure and not enough on prevention - when it comes to physical problems.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;281542Sure. But I think physical conditions which produce illness vary a lot more than the more human conditions. Unless we're to suppose that every mental condition has purely physical causes. Which some do, but most don't.

Well, really it is comparing apples and oranges, but I think that culture and social environment a great deal among developed countries -- qualitatively just as much as physical factors like diet.

Jimmy B:  I am reasonably certain that I did not say anything in this thread about classrooms of Ritalin kids, so why do I see my named being quoted by you about classrooms of Ritalin?