Interesting point about the pledge, James, and I agree that what we're pledging allegience to -- our republican form of government -- is not all that bad. Well, other than that completely unnecessary "under God" crap they inserted back in the 50s.

Personally, I think it's inapproriate to teach the pledge to children at a young age. When you're learning it at 5 it's utterly meaningless; it's just rote memorization without context. By contrast, to an immigrant who learns it and says it during a naturalization cermony it's this beautiful, amazing thing, filled with many layers of meaning. The pledge itself is sacred. IMO, saying the pledge at 5 is one of the many factors that leads to voter apathy.

I think it would be better if there were a sort of civic induction ceremony that everyone had to go through in order to get their first voter registration card, something similar to graduation from high school or an immigration naturalization ceremony. Part of the ceremony would be the Pledge. I think it would add many layers of context and meaning to folks, and would inspire them toward civic duty.

Quote from: ElectroKittyWhen you're learning it at 5 it's utterly meaningless; it's just rote memorization without context. By contrast, to an immigrant who learns it and says it during a naturalization cermony it's this beautiful, amazing thing, filled with many layers of meaning. The pledge itself is sacred. IMO, saying the pledge at 5 is one of the many factors that leads to voter apathy.

Which is why I explained it to my son.  I tried to focus on the important parts (we're not religious, so, though he says the "under God" part, we skimmed it), like what Liberty and Justice mean, and why we should want them for everyone. And why it's important, though we may disagree, that we remain one nation, indivisible driven to uphold these ideas.

Does he get it? Probably not all of it. But this will not be the last time we discuss it and its implications.

Quote from: ElectroKittyI think it would be better if there were a sort of civic induction ceremony that everyone had to go through in order to get their first voter registration card, something similar to graduation from high school or an immigration naturalization ceremony. Part of the ceremony would be the Pledge. I think it would add many layers of context and meaning to folks, and would inspire them toward civic duty.

An interesting idea, but screw the voter registration card - make it mandatory for getting your driver's license.  That'll learn them thar whipersnappers.

Quote from: James J SkachAnd to be clear, it's not the Citizen as Leader is not a valid and honorable perspective.  It's just not the definition of Democracy, per se.

People like to say that the US has a democratic government, when the US is really a representative federal republic - at least that's the way it supposed to work. Democracy refers to the way in which we determine those representatives.

So it's a little more...I think some like to flaunt the word "nuanced"...

I explained the pledge to my son last night (he's in kindergarten and it's his first exposure to the memorization of it). No where in that pledge does it talk about pledging allegiance to any person or party in government – it’s “to the flag…and the Republic for which it stands.”  Allegiance does not mean, as many on the Left are fond of pointing out, total and complete mindless agreement.

It’s actually a nice pledge when you get down to it – “one nation [under God] indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all,” is not a bad thing to which one could pledge allegiance.

And don’t get me started on the Star Spangled Banner…

But I digress…

I tihnk you don't understand my point.

This is not some technicality based on what specific form of government in place here.

It's a universal truth.  Governments exist to serve their people, period.  If a government starts to serve only itself, it is a failure of power and should be removed.

It's a tool, and nothing more, and when that tool is broken, it needs to be either repaired, or tossed out and replaced.

The same holds true if it's a Democracy, a Republic, or a goddamn Communist dictatorship, as far as I am concerned.

Quote from: James J SkachAllegiance does not mean, as many on the Left are fond of pointing out, total and complete mindless agreement.

Or, as some on the Right are fond of pointing out, total and complete mindless agreement.

QuoteAnd don’t get me started on the Star Spangled Banner…

What?  That it's a militant anthem instead of one in praise of freedom and prosperity befitting our great nation like, say, "America the Beautiful"?

!i!

Quote from: James J SkachWhich is why I explained it to my son.

Good.

QuoteDoes he get it? Probably not all of it. But this will not be the last time we discuss it and its implications.

Which is why I think we should hold off on the memorization until at least Freshman year of High School. Then they're at least mature enough to understand the basic concepts that are involved.

QuoteAn interesting idea, but screw the voter registration card - make it mandatory for getting your driver's license.  That'll learn them thar whipersnappers.

lol

Quote from: J ArcaneI tihnk you don't understand my point.

This is not some technicality based on what specific form of government in place here.

It's a universal truth.  Governments exist to serve their people, period.  If a government starts to serve only itself, it is a failure of power and should be removed.

It's a tool, and nothing more, and when that tool is broken, it needs to be either repaired, or tossed out and replaced.

The same holds true if it's a Democracy, a Republic, or a goddamn Communist dictatorship, as far as I am concerned.

Ummmm...I wasn't responding to you.  I apologize if that was no clear.  I was responding specifically to something someone said about not teaching civics anymore...

The universal truth is that most governments throughout history did not exist to serve their people. I'm not sure what hate you have on, but I'd appreciate it if you left me out of it. Unless, of course, you are of the opinion that the form of government in the United States, the Constitutionally established Representative Federal Republic, needs to be tossed out - then it's game on...

Quote from: James J SkachUmmmm...I wasn't responding to you.  I apologize if that was no clear.  I was responding specifically to something someone said about not teaching civics anymore...

The universal truth is that most governments throughout history did not exist to serve their people. I'm not sure what hate you have on, but I'd appreciate it if you left me out of it. Unless, of course, you are of the opinion that the form of government in the United States, the Constitutionally established Representative Federal Republic, needs to be tossed out - then it's game on...

I think that the present US government and power structure is not doing it's duty to the best of it's ability, but I do not think it has entirely failed yet, though as always, "the price of liberty is eternal vigiliance" and all that.

It can be fixed, though I despair of the likelihood of that, given how entrenched some of the polluting influences are in our present power structure.  

and as for this:

QuoteThe universal truth is that most governments throughout history did not exist to serve their people.

Most governments at one point practiced open slavery too.  That doesn't mean it has to always be that way.

Quote from: J ArcaneI think that the present US government and power structure is not doing it's duty to the best of it's ability, but I do not think it has entirely failed yet, though as always, "the price of liberty is eternal vigiliance" and all that.

There are sadly too few times in the history of mankind that even the best of strucutred organizations do their duty to the best of their ability. The neat part is, and stop me if you've heard this one, the form of government lets us change that every so many years - new and improved: Sans Bloodshed!

Quote from: J ArcaneIt can be fixed, though I despair of the likelihood of that, given how entrenched some of the polluting influences are in our present power structure.

I hear ya brother.  I mean - jesus ahve you seen what some of those nutball jerkoff liberal left wingers want to do?

Oh..umm..it just occurs to me that you might have meant something else...

See, it's all in the perspective. That's why the form is an amazing piece of human genius - the function, rife as it is with the fallabilities of humans, leaves much to be desired.

Quote from: J ArcaneMost governments at one point practiced open slavery too.  That doesn't mean it has to always be that way.

That's interesting.  I honestly wasn't aware that the government of the United States practiced slavery.  I mean, I know the laws allowed it, but I wasn't aware the government practiced it.

If you mean other governments, then I guess you're right, America shows the world how much better it can be! Yay!

In this thread I have to both totally agree with J Arcane AND totally disagree with him.

I happen to think a little patriotism is a good thing. It IS your country, right or wrong, its up to you what to do about the second part. So I disagree with his initial posts.

On the other hand, on the view of the role of government, and when it needs to be run through a woodchipper, I couldn't agree more.  

I think the disconnect is that I don't view 'My Country' as 'My Government', and I can't think of the last time I ever heard of anyone swearing oaths to 'My Government'. Lets leave aside the obvious references to 'nations' that are little more than modern fiefdoms and estates of olde.  Same with swearing to a flag. The flag, last I checked, is the symbol of a nation, not a particular governing body.  Mexico's flag includes symbology relating to the Aztec 'creation myths', yet Mexico is hardly Azteca, or whatever.  How long has France flow their tricolor, and how many governments have they had since then?


So there is a Loyalty Day? So what? So Bush wants his staffers to wear little US flag pins? So what?  Hell, as recently as a year ago I was expected to wear a pin of the US and Afghanistan flags crossed on my breast. I didn't, not out of some weird politcal point, but because I couldn't be assed to make sure the damn thing stayed upright, much less actually buy one of the stupid fuckers.  I'm such a rebel.

On this, my apathy know no bounds. :rolleyes:

QuoteI hear ya brother. I mean - jesus ahve you seen what some of those nutball jerkoff liberal left wingers want to do?

It may surprise you to realize that the particular problem I was addressing is equally poisonous on left or right, and doesn't even directly have to do with the present exectutive administration, though some of it's actions are a symptom of it.

Quote from: J ArcaneIt may surprise you to realize that the particular problem I was addressing is equally poisonous on left or right, and doesn't even directly have to do with the present exectutive administration, though it's actions are a symptom of it.

It may surprise you to realize that the whole point of those two sentences of my post are to point out the very fact you're telling me I might be surprised to realize....

Loyalty, Patriotism, Pledging Allegiance - it's not about who is or is not in power, in or out of government, and what fucked up thing they are doing to win whatever power/money/I'm-insecure-about-the-size-of-my-penis game they think we're all playing...

It's about and idea that shook the world to it's core 200 some odd years ago...

Some thoughts to ponder:

• Nationhood is at best a fiction, a figment of the collective imagination that has power because people give it power. It has no reality in and of itself. Obvious? Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?
• Flag ≠ Land ≠ People ≠ Government. Confusion of these is the source of a great deal of human misery, as well as no small amount of misplaced pride.
• No flag, piece of land, government, or populace can be said to hold any recognizable set of values, beliefs, etc. To attribute such to the first two is simply absurd, to do so with the third is dangerously naïve, and to do so with the last is to reduce the people involved to an abstraction and deny their humanity.
• The chief function of flags and nations is to separate people living "under" one flag/nation from others who live "under" a different flag/nation. That way, when you tell them they must kill one another, they're more likely to obey. Bonus points if you can get them to believe that their flag/nation makes them better than others or that it actually says something meaningful about them.
• When you're told that you're at war with Nation X, what you're really being told is that your government is at war with the government of Nation X and that you and the citizen of Nation X are the weapons that they will use to fight one another. You will be told that this is in defense of your "freedom." Rest assured, the people of Nation X will be told the same.
  
• A good indicator of how free people are is whether they have to be constantly reminded that they're free.
• A common distractionary technique used by repressive governments is to remind the citizen how much more repressive they could be, and that the citizen should be grateful for what freedoms they are allowed. The idea that "freedom" is not innate, but rather must be allowed by a more powerful entity, is implicit in this argument. On the individual level, this is clearly absurd. It is well within a particular individual's power to point a gun at you and forbid you from doing certain things on pain of death, yet you would hardly feel grateful to the average person for refraining from such an act. On the contrary, you would likely be outraged that they had even considered it. Yet we are grateful and proud when our government spares the gun...
  
• Democracy, to trace it back to the Greek δημοκρατία, refers to a system in which the populace at large holds supreme executive power.
• Representative forms of government are not even an approximation of the above, but are actually anti-democratic in the fundamental reasoning behind them. They are based on the assumption that people can't be trusted to make their own decisions and so therefore a small number of other people must be appointed to make those decisions on their behalf.
• I shouldn't have to point out the inherent contradiction in that.

If you need me, I'll be in Guantanamo getting my electric shocks so that I'll agree to plead guilty to unknown charges before being allowed to see my lawyer who won't be privy to the "evidence" against me. But don't worry; things always come out OK, no matter who's in charge.

...Right?

Oh my, school yard politics! Hand me the spliff, mon!

This whole thread just makes me want to buy flag lapel pins now.

 My leather jacket used to have on its lapel : A n American Flag pin (at the top of course), two different Klingon symbol pins (a red & black one and a multi-color one) , a Republican party Elephant pin, and a peace symbol.  
 One of the Klingon symbol pins was the multi-color version from the original series. Someone once asked me if that was a "Gay Pride" pin.

Also used to wear a button that said:  "I survived the 20th Century".

- Ed C.

Quote from: Black FlagIf you need me, I'll be in Guantanamo getting my electric shocks so that I'll agree to plead guilty to unknown charges before being allowed to see my lawyer who won't be privy to the "evidence" against me. But don't worry; things always come out OK, no matter who's in charge.
... Right?

Yes, well, let me know how that works out for you. 'cause, you know, Chimpy McHaliBusHitlerCoInc will shortly be removing all your posts from teh intarweb as well, as soon as they get around to arresting and no doubt executing anyone who disagrees with them, like the horribly persecuted and censored Hollywood types and Jon Stewarts of the world. Because NOBODY ever hears what they have to say about the Chosen One and his evil flying monkey cronies because every word out of their mouth is digitally altered or erased. And remember those horribly persecuted web sites like DailyKos and such that have been shut down by the Thought Police? You do? Oh noes! The mental manipulation satellites must not have erased all the pertinent parts of you memory. Don't answer the door! It could be.... CHENEY!

... Right?