I think the french cominc was named ' the adventurs of Delorian and Leelou" but I never read it.
I saw the movie. It was pretty cool but need a better script. It felt very much like an Anime I would have watch in the late 90's. As an example in the 2nd scene Delorian asks Leelou out on a date, she turns him down so he asks her to marry him instead. I mean come on.
That said of all the middleschoolness of the dialogue. It was good. The effects were spectacular, the direction and pacing were good. The actors were game.
John Goodman was in it. He's been working more lately. He was in Atomic Blond. Another good comicbook movie. A much better movie than Delorian.
They should have kept the name though. "The coldest city" would be much more accurate. That movie was rough. Atomic blonde sounds like a fun action movie. This was rougher than Bourne, and more Spiey than Tinker Tailor.
Quote from: Headless;981779I saw the movie. It was pretty cool but need a better script...
That pretty much sums up every film Luc Besson has ever made.
I read the sample issue (first issue? First issue of a story arc? Some shit done by Besson to hype his movie??? I dunno) that came with a free advertisement for the movie several months ago, before I'd heard anything about it.
It was... interesting? Enough to make me think some day I'll try to get a graphic collection (HEY!!! I got Amazon working again!!!) to give it a better go, but not interesting enough to make me desperate to read more.
I saw the movie, and it wasn't anything like as bad as some critics made out. It's clearly driven by effects, but the story and script isn't that bad - no different to your usual sci-fi affair - the acting is OK and it does have beautiful visuals. It has a tidier script than either Lucy or The Fifth Element.
Fifth Element is now treated as a cult classic but I recall most people thinking it sucked too when it first came out.
Q: Anyone read Valorian and the city of 1000 worlds?
A: Never even heard of it until now.
Quote from: Voros;981880Thay pretty much sums up every film Luc Besson has ever made.
:p :p
Didn't he make that awful Three Musketeers with flying galleons and kung fu fighting?
Don't think so. He may have written it. His adaptation of Tardi's Adele Blanc-Sec was not bad at all but it didn't really get much of a theatrical release in North America.
Quote from: Voros;982378Don't think so. He may have written it. His adaptation of Tardi's Adele Blanc-Sec was not bad at all but it didn't really get much of a theatrical release in North America.
I checked IMDB, someone named Paul W.S. Anderson directed it. Luc Besson didn't write it either. I must have been confused due to Milla Jovovich and her dreadfully bad Milady. Too bad they dragged Dumas' name into it; he is not to blame for all the hamfisted "improvements" they made to his novels. In fact the 2011 version seems more like they skipped reading the books entirely and just made an even worse adaptation of the godawful 1993 Disney version which had nothing at all to do with the books.
'The Adventures of Delorian and Leelou" was referenced in the end titles, and may end up being a sequel maybe (although if the box office is low, maybe not).
The Fifth Element and Lucy were a bit sentimental and messy in their scripts, but I suspect the source material for Valerian may be more that way inclined anyway - so the writing and direction may be more in tune. There were some elements of confusion through the movie - 'what's going on?' sort of thing - but the denouement generally holds it together. The virtual marketplace on the desert world is quite clever and I didn't actually think the dialogue or the acting from the two leads was anything that bad, really. They didn't annoy me as characters, as some other sci-fi characters can do. I could see a franchise being built on it.
Sure they can build a franchise on it if they evolve the gender roles beyond "this is what 12 year old boys from the 70s thought was cool."
Quote from: Headless;984612Sure they can build a franchise on it if they evolve the gender roles beyond "this is what 12 year old boys from the 70s thought was cool."
Here you go again, spouting stuff without doing a single lick of research.
So, in the sample Valorian I have, the dude is captured and the chick is the one who sets about rescuing him (denoument is not in my sample), and everything I've read about Valorian since then suggests a partnership of equals between the male and female leads, rather than the usual romantic 'male dominant' paradigm.
So. How, exactly, do they need to evolve these gender roles away from 1970's norms? Ooh, I know: Maybe they should have Valorian change his name to Susan and be constantly begging Leeloo (or whatever her name is) to do him up the ass?
Because there's a HUGE market for those characters.
I was talking about a movie franchise. They already built a comic franchise.
Did you watch the movie? In the movie Delorian and Leelou suit up to protect a VIP. While wearing the suit Delorian, smashes his way in a straight line through everything in his path. Market stalls, walls, bulkheads, water, preasure walls holding back 1000s of pounds persquare inch of said water. While wearing the same suit Leelou get captured in a wicker basket.
Why would I watch a movie that all and sundry agree is bad? Also, this thread started by asking about the original series, not the movie so much.
And lastly: if that is your only example of regressive sex rolls favored by 12 year old boys you are going to have to do much much better. Inconsistency regarding the power of technology for reasons of plot is an all too common, and utterly gender neutral, failing of the entertainment industry. You seem to be unaware just how impoverished the writing landscape is these days. Show me that Leelou's wicker basket capture suit failure is due to her gender. Show me more than 'male character did this one thing, female character did this one thing', as a single data point is not a compelling argument...
.... unless, of course, you believe that no female character should ever be less than perfect unless, gasp!, sexism.
Because that is as stupidly boring as no male characters ever being less than awesome. There is a reason why the 80's action hero mostly died out after only a half decade or so of glory.
two other things I meant to say that I left out, because I'm a sloppy undisciplined fool.
First, I'm off to the Post Office to see if my amazon order of Volume 1 of Valorian has arrived, so I can weigh in on the original source material.
Two, I should remind you that Luc Besson, the guy behind the film that you are accusing of pandering to the sexual politics of 12 year old boys, pretty much invented the Action-Chick with Leeloo Dallas, or even La Femme Nikita, even beating famous Hollywood Feminist Joss Whedon (of the Waif-Fu addiction) to the punch by several years.
Ok, so kung fu flicks probably got him beat by about forty years or so, but that's irrelevant to my point: I highly doubt Luc Besson made a film with Leelou as a regressive, sexist 'Damsel' in any meaningful way, since his style has been, for thirty odd years now, to heap plot and action on his female characters to an almost absurd degree.
Of course: Action-Chick is actually a male power fantasy, rather than meaningfully empowering to women, but if the feminists are okay with Action Chick empowerment, who am I to point that out, eh?
Quote from: Spike;984946.....but that's irrelevant to my point: I highly doubt Luc Besson made a film with Leelou as a regressive, sexist 'Damsel' in any meaningful way, .....
Except he did. Leelou (who's name isn't leelou but I can't remember it, he's not delorian either but it was a silly movie) gets captured is a stupid way for no reason other than so delorian can rescue her. And so Rianna has a reason to show up.
The second point of adolescent gender roles is the second scean of the movie, Delorian askes LeeLou out on a date, like he does all his female parteners (he's a major she's a sargent not only are they in the same chain of command but he is her commanding officer he should be fired, but I'll give you a "movies its fine on that one") she says no, so he asks her to marry him. That maybe gender neutral but its still adolescent.
One more, during the intro credits, thre is a string of about a dozen maybe more comanders welcomong new arrivals to the space station. Not a single female commander.
But my point isn't its sexist. Its the relationship was juvenile.
Let me know how the comics are.
Quote from: Headless;984993Except he did. Leelou (who's name isn't leelou but I can't remember it, he's not delorian either but it was a silly movie) gets captured is a stupid way for no reason other than so delorian can rescue her. And so Rianna has a reason to show up.
You were making an argument about retrograde sexual politics. The Girl getting captured one time is merely a data point, not a pattern, and a captured person needs rescuing. My question remains: Is the Girl never allowed to be vulnerable? That seems as bland as the Guy never being allowed to be vulnerable.
QuoteThe second point of adolescent gender roles is the second scean of the movie, Delorian askes LeeLou out on a date, like he does all his female parteners (he's a major she's a sargent not only are they in the same chain of command but he is her commanding officer he should be fired, but I'll give you a "movies its fine on that one") she says no, so he asks her to marry him. That maybe gender neutral but its still adolescent.
Is it retrograde adolescent sexuality and ergo sexist... or is it gender neutral? I don't think it can be both.
I just rewatched Mr Plinkett's Force Awakens review, so this is on my mind a bit, but one of the big problems with the Farce Awakens is that there is no real emotion between the characters, no relationships except some sort of sanitized G rated friendship... between any characters really. You are telling me that you have a problem with Valorian actually showing interest in another character as a potential sexual partner? Leaving aside legal issues, doesn't that make him more human and relatable, even if we don't like it (he's a creeper and harasser?). Also Lauraline rebuffing him shows she has agency as a person, which is... wait for it... empowering.
QuoteOne more, during the intro credits, thre is a string of about a dozen maybe more comanders welcomong new arrivals to the space station. Not a single female commander.
But my point isn't its sexist. Its the relationship was juvenile.
You specifically called out gender roles, so yes, you were saying it was sexist. That or you were upset because only two genders were shown. I'll be generous and assume you meant the former. I probably should have been more generous in my first response, but I was feeling extra spicy.
QuoteLet me know how the comics are.
That's the plan. Its the movie-edition of the first volume, so the first 'chapter' is a bunch of crap about the making of, with interviews with the original writer and artist. It may interest you to learn that Valorian and Lauraline don't kiss until volume ten, but that could be because the artist admits to not having a good solution to drawing himself kissing his wife other than drawing her kissing some other man, which he didn't want to do. Cameras were a thing back in the seventies, but whatever. There are a few pot shots taken at Star Wars ripping of Valorian as well, but honestly, I don't think I'll actually read that part. I'm honestly disinterested in all of that.
Having read Volume 1 (the only one I've got) I...
Hmm.
Well, the artwork and storytelling didn't really impress me much, but then again I'm reading stuff done before I was born by people who used to be french cowboys, so...
Valerians and Lauraline is... weird stuff, which was my impression from the exerpt I got for free with the advert for the movie. The artwork in the exerpt is better, its a later story. There are some good ideas that are touched on, but only that, touched on and for the most part its... well... its almost too weird to live. I only put the 'almost' in there because live it did, for forty years.
The first two story arcs involve Agent Valerian travelling through time to chase down a renegade technocrat, first to mideval france, where Lauraline rescues him and later joins him after briefly being a unicorn. The second is to Post Apocalpyse New York City, circa 1986... where again Lauraline rescues him, then he rescues her, etc.
Socio-politically, I think its pretty enlightened, even by Headless's standards. The writer and artist clearly do think Valerian and Lauraline are in some sort of relationship, but its done 'off page' as they say in the interviews, 'on page' its pretty much all business. There are some refreshing takes on old cliches (odd, because this was written before I was born, ergo before I got tired of those cliches...) such as in the second story where the captured scientist largely rescues not just himself but also Valerian, and by extension Lauraline, rather than being the nebbish klutz and general incompetent (outside of science) that we so often see... despite being drawn somewhat nebbishly.
The third story shows the progression of the 'series' being a first contact with an advanced alien civilization, and delving into some interesting but difficult to summarize questions.*
What I definitely like is that the supporting characters, teh NPCs if you will, have their own motivations and desires, and actively pursue them. They aren't there just to help/hinder Valerian in his mission but are helping/hindering because it helps them, and there is refreshingly little false moralizing going on. The Merchant Enrin wants to take advantage of the rebellion on his home planet (caused by his helping Valerian defeat the Enlightened) in order to secure himself a place in the new provisional government that will form... and no one pouts about how 'wrong' it is. Sun Rae agrees to help Valerian in the Post Apocalypse Earth because he can use the gadgets left behind to take power in the anarchic wilderness as a warlord, and he's a likeable supporting character, a loveable rogue (and world class flautist, apparently!).
Second post. Thanks for the brief.
First post. I was geti g all set to respond with a fury of CAPS but then you ended up being reasonable.
As for delorians sexuality, hitting on his partner may not be sexist. Hitting on every partner might not be sexist. But it is borish. You can argue me a way from it being a sexist movie it was still boreish.
Some of your questions might be answered by Anita Sarkeesinan. Did she ever learn how to make an interesting you tube vid? I watched pieces of her first couple but god damn were they dull. These seem like exactly the questions she was goingto dive into though.
Not really. I mean she's basically a fire and brimstone puritan preacher of the religion of Intersectional Feminism, so she's about as useless for a debate on the merits as a vegan is on recommending a good steakhouse.
Of course, a polite vegan might try to answer based on what they've heard, but St Anita of the Gamergate Crusade won't even allow people who disagree with her to be in the same public space, much less entertain their notions. Besides, I'd bet body parts she doesn't roll the dice, and this IS an RPG based forum.
Regarding Valerian's behavior.... boorish? Eh. There is a decent theory that flirting with a woman is only creepy/boorish/inappropriate if she isn't attracted to you. How do you establish if a woman is attracted to you? You try flirting with her. Vicious cycle. Boorish/creep/harassing behavior is objectively a problem when the dude doesn't take the hint, the rebuff, and keeps on trying like a broken robot stuck on horny, subjectively is a much much thornier question.
I can say that the relationship is clearly different, at least at the beginning, in the movie than in the comic series. In the series (in collected volume 1 anyway) we never see or hear of Valerian having a partner at all, though we do (very) breifly see some of his fellow agents relaxing in some sort of bar/lounge, and his behavior is perfectly acceptable in the... three or four panels we get. Valerian meets Lauraline in mideaval france (11th century) in a magical forest while trapped inside a giant tree leaf, and she becomes his partner after learning (as a unicorn mind reader...) that he's from the future. There is no real flirting or sexualized behavior between them. You see them in a more relaxed partners-possibly-lovers attitude at the start of the second story arc, playing 3d chess and teasing one another... so the relationship expands entirely off screen.
Is Valerian boorish? In later volumes... possibly? I haven't a clue, but not a hint of it in the first collection, nor in the half(quarter?)-story that is the basis of the movie plot.
I'm pretty sure the Sarkeesian reference was a joke.
Just like girls, there are no jokes on the Internet. It is serious business, you know.
Wasn't a joke. Spike asked "are women never allowed to show vulnerability?" I was complaining that in the movie Louraline gets captured for no reason than so Delorian can rescue her. These are exactly the questions Sarkeesinan (which my phone knows how to spell, wierd) set out to discuss. Back before gamer gate happened.
Funny... I thought she set out to prove Batman was sexist because he wears an ass concealing cape.
I don't think so. I mean I haven't watch all of them and she has been going for a while. Actully I haven't watched any of the all the way through, they were dull, especially when you are used to Yatzee and MovieBob. Man the escapiest uosed to be good. Did you watch "There will be Brawl?"
Like I said I haven't watched all of them. Maybe she got down to how lack of bat ass was sexist. But they put bat nipples on the suit right?
That was a reference from an actual video, yes. One she has been mocked roundly for, not only because it shows how fundamentally unserious she is, but also because she was actually wrong, as there are plenty of male asses available for her to perv over in said game, including (I believe) at least one alternate costume for Batman that has no cape.
One of the things about Conan is the men are more naked then the women.
Of course he lives through every adventure and the girl dies at end of every adventure or the beginning of the next one.
I agree with the criticism of Laureline's capture. It was nonsense. Women characters should have chances to show vulnerability, but this wasn't like that. This was just weird and jarring. As a rough example, put Hawkeye and Black Widow in identical suits made by Stark. Show Hawkeye demonstrating the capabilities of the suit for several minutes worth of wall smashing, air walking, and complete environmental adaptability from under water to to hard vacuum. The suit is pretty cool. Then, have Black Widow captured by a rope and a basket by comic relief primitives, but don't even bother showing it. Just one scene snagged by a lure and the next stuffed in wicker.
Hell, I LIKE Luc Besson movies, but this? Not fun.