Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Now please tell me how the fuck does the Force being EVERYWHERE mean you can be a Jedi WITHOUT being Force Sensitive? Meaning you can't use it.

Ahsoka Part Five - SHADOW WARRIOR


I don't think we can say that Hayden Christensen was miscast any more. He was really good in this, and you could feel the Vader, and it felt right in a way the prequels never did.  Maybe he had to grow into it, I don't know. But I thought the whole sequence worked amazingly well.

I also thought Ariana Greenblatt did a great job as young Ahsoka. I was blown away when I realized she was the live action version of Clone Wars Ahsoka. I didn't see that coming, and again, it worked.

They don't mention it by name, but the place that Ahsoka and Anakin are in is the World Between Worlds, a place outside of normal time and space, created by Force magic. It is an empty space defined by glowing arc lines that connect various loci that are doorways to the outside universe, usually at places that are strong in the Force. These loci contact the "real world" at different locations, and different points in time. People can also be brought into and exit the World Between Worlds without using the doorways, as the plot dictates. Ahsoka has been there before, as has Ezra Bridger.

Think of it as the path between the wardrobe and Narnia.

What was the point of the World Between Worlds segment? What was the big lesson Ahsoka learned? I think she was learning how to fight while at the same time, remaining centered, or if you prefer, based. She learns this from Anakin's negative example: he became lost, and ultimately lost himself. And in the end, Ahsoka turning Anakin's attack back on him is an expression of that state of being centered.

Was that the real Anakin, as a force ghost, or just a force vision like Luke saw on Dagobah? I lean towards the former, but I don't think it matters all that much.

Jacen Syndulla gets a couple nice scenes here. That armor on his right shoulder is a callback to his father, Kanan Jarrus.

You wonder why Jacen isn't a Padawan. But on the other hand, his mom is making sure he gets to have a childhood. I think that in the long run, he'll be better off for it.

That thing Hera is wearing that looks like the fifth side of a metal D6 is a rebel general's insignia. General Dodonna wore one in Star Wars Episode IV. So I guess she is a five star general, which is why she gets away with going off on this mission. She's the equivalent of a Douglas MacArthur, able to operate on her own initiative until she gets recalled by her government.

Did it bug anyone else that people were walking around with only the one half of the destroyed map sphere? I was like "where's the other half?"

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Nowhere in the pre-Disney films (I do not consider EU to be canon) does it say you must be "force sensitive" which is a fan term.

Quote from: Lurkndog on September 16, 2023, 09:52:39 PM
Did it bug anyone else that people were walking around with only the one half of the destroyed map sphere? I was like "where's the other half?"

Just you.  I figured they only needed half to show it was FUBAR. Maybe the other half is in Ahsoka's ships glove compartment.

QuoteI don't think we can say that Hayden Christensen was miscast any more. He was really good in this, and you could feel the Vader, and it felt right in a way the prequels never did.  Maybe he had to grow into it, I don't know. But I thought the whole sequence worked amazingly well.

For all that I defend the prequels, I think it was the writing that made the whole Anakin/Vader story weak. Some screws came loose in Lucas' mind sometime during Jedi, and it just got worse with the prequels.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 10:18:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Nowhere in the pre-Disney films (I do not consider EU to be canon) does it say you must be "force sensitive" which is a fan term.

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

"Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware: Anger, fear, aggression – the Dark Side, are they."

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well, you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

I'll ask again, how can someone who doesn't feel the force (a force sensitive if you will) be a Jedi.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 10:33:37 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 10:18:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Nowhere in the pre-Disney films (I do not consider EU to be canon) does it say you must be "force sensitive" which is a fan term.

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

"Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware: Anger, fear, aggression – the Dark Side, are they."

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well, you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

I'll ask again, how can someone who doesn't feel the force (a force sensitive if you will) be a Jedi.

Ask yourself.

Luke didn't "feel the force", until Obi Wan started training him. How did Luke learn to be a Jedi if he didn't "feel the force"?

I'll even give you a hint...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Now please tell me how the fuck does the Force being EVERYWHERE mean you can be a Jedi WITHOUT being Force Sensitive? Meaning you can't use it.

Obi-Wan implied that even Han could have learned to use the Force if he'd let go of his preconceived notions.

The original intent with the Force was never magic bloodlines, it was straight up spiritualism/mysticism; some people by dint of personality or nature might have an easier time with it than others, and some by dint of the same may find it virtually impossible to let go of their preconceptions. (Not coincidentally, it's a lot easier to bring someone up in a mystic tradition from a very young age than when they've become set in their ways, which also matches Jedi practices).

Magic bloodlines came from fan interpretation and an RPG book needing to distinguish between character types (which also took Yoda's "Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack" far more literally than Yoda ever did in the films).

Similarly, I don't feel like looking for the particular interview from George, but I believe it's been clarified that midichlorians don't produce the Force, they congregate where the Force is already strong (basically they're a secondary indicator which is useful because it can be measured with a blood test).

Anyway, it seems we're going back more to GL's original intent. And I'm okay with that. In D&D terms; Force-wielders (everyone uses the Force to some extent; canonically Han's luck and piloting are low level Force traits akin to Anakin's piloting skills) are wizard/monks, not sorcerers.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 10:33:37 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 10:18:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Nowhere in the pre-Disney films (I do not consider EU to be canon) does it say you must be "force sensitive" which is a fan term.

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

"Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware: Anger, fear, aggression – the Dark Side, are they."

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well, you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

I'll ask again, how can someone who doesn't feel the force (a force sensitive if you will) be a Jedi.

How could Luke have become a Jedi if he didn't feel a disturbance in the Force when Alderaan blew up? And had to be told by Yoda that he had to feel the Force all around him to pull his ship from the swamp, cuz evidently he wasn't feeling it and was just trying to pull it through brute force?

It's almost like you need training in order to properly sense the Force. And you're putting the cart before the horse.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 17, 2023, 03:02:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 10:33:37 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 10:18:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Nowhere in the pre-Disney films (I do not consider EU to be canon) does it say you must be "force sensitive" which is a fan term.

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

"Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware: Anger, fear, aggression – the Dark Side, are they."

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well, you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

I'll ask again, how can someone who doesn't feel the force (a force sensitive if you will) be a Jedi.

Ask yourself.

Luke didn't "feel the force", until Obi Wan started training him. How did Luke learn to be a Jedi if he didn't "feel the force"?

I'll even give you a hint...

Counterpoint:

Luke felt the force but not all the time or at will and couldn't use it until he was trained.

Else, then Obiwan AND Yoda are idiots for not just taking ANY child and training him/her to become a Jedi instead of putting all their hopes into the Skywalkers.

Which should tell you (if you weren't so intent on excusing everything in Ahsoka because of the memberberries) there's something special about those who can become a Jedi, you get another clue when Obiwan meets Anakin.

But now Disney is saying that ANYONE can become a Jedi and using the Force isn't needed.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 17, 2023, 01:44:05 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 17, 2023, 03:02:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 10:33:37 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 10:18:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2023, 07:43:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Ok, you guys have changed my mind Ahsoka is actually great.

Ahsoka (And Yoda in Empire) explicitly states that everyone has the Force. It's generated by all living things. It's that people have varying levels of talent in using it.

The Force IS everywhere, but NOWHERE in pre-Disney canon does it say that ANYONE can learn to use it, you have to be force sensitive.

Nowhere in the pre-Disney films (I do not consider EU to be canon) does it say you must be "force sensitive" which is a fan term.

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

"Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware: Anger, fear, aggression – the Dark Side, are they."

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well, you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

I'll ask again, how can someone who doesn't feel the force (a force sensitive if you will) be a Jedi.

Ask yourself.

Luke didn't "feel the force", until Obi Wan started training him. How did Luke learn to be a Jedi if he didn't "feel the force"?

I'll even give you a hint...

Counterpoint:

Luke felt the force but not all the time or at will and couldn't use it until he was trained.

Evidence?

QuoteElse, then Obiwan AND Yoda are idiots for not just taking ANY child and training him/her to become a Jedi instead of putting all their hopes into the Skywalkers.

The Skywalkers were plainly said to be "strong in the Force". (Obi wan describing Luke's father to him) Qui Gonn believed Anakin was the "Chosen one", and insisted on training him. They had innate talent, and that's why they were chosen for training.

QuoteWhich should tell you (if you weren't so intent on excusing everything in Ahsoka because of the memberberries)

And there you go. You want to hate Ahsoka so bad that you're willing to make shit up that's not there.

Anyone can casually play a sport, not everyone can be an olympic athlete. I think force mastery takes skill and talent. Anyone could learn to use the force to some extend, but few have the potential to master it as a Jedi. Strength in the force is then a product of raw power and the finesse of training to control it. Why else are there so few Jedi in the vast galaxy?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 18, 2023, 12:51:12 AM
And there you go. You want to hate Ahsoka so bad that you're willing to make shit up that's not there.

"Wrath and anger are abominations, yet the sinner hugs them tight." -Sirac 27:30

This was the reading this Sunday. And as we're all sinners this is defining the human condition. We love our wrath. Some can't feel complete without something to direct wrath at.

Better wrath at a piece of fiction than at people I guess.

Quote from: Wisithir on September 18, 2023, 05:55:43 AM
Anyone can casually play a sport, not everyone can be an olympic athlete. I think force mastery takes skill and talent. Anyone could learn to use the force to some extend, but few have the potential to master it as a Jedi. Strength in the force is then a product of raw power and the finesse of training to control it. Why else are there so few Jedi in the vast galaxy?

my thoughts exactly. i don't see any problem with force mastery being a product of both nature and nurture, with jedi and sith being in the primium league of their own. in fact, given ahsoka's personal history with both, i'd say it makes perfect sense for her to choose one to train as her padawan based on her personal history and established trust with that person, rather than talent.

If it's OK with everyone, let's see how Ahsoka actually plays out before we judge it.

I'm hoping we get to see Ezra in person tomorrow night.