Quote from: RPGPunditThe point, Akrasia, is that the religious answer to the "problem of evil" is provided by Augustine. Oh, and by Job...

You cannot know what is good or evil from god's point of view. God is beyond you.  Who the fuck are you to presume to know why?
...
Our capacity to understand is limited by our condition as human beings...

Yes, yes, how tireseome.

Pundit, you're not paying attention.   I already dispatched this argument.  

Here:

Quote from: AkrasiaWell, we do have evidence of widespread suffering in the world.  The argument claims that this suffering is incompatible with God, as traditionally conceived by Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

Now, we are limited, fallible human beings.  So perhaps the argument fails for some reason that I cannot comprehend.

But I should form my beliefs on the basis of the best arguments and evidence available.  This is certainly  compatible with recognising that I have limited evidence and cognitive abilities.

At least you and James share one thing: your amazing ability to ignore what I write.

Quote from: RPGPundit...
Hell, a MUCH better argument against Judeo-christianity than the "problem of evil" argument is the fact that in Judeo-christianity God acts all too human. ] ...

I quite agree that that is a good argument.

As I've said many times: arguments are not mutually exclusive!

Why did you ever think otherwise? :confused:

Quote from: RPGPundit...
In any case, your choosing this as your personal Alamo is not looking well on you ... having been spanked by a nun or fondled by a priest or something...

Vulgar Ad hominem arguments reflect poorly on you, Pundit.

I have nothing against religious folk, if they're willing to discuss their views rationally.  One of the reasons I take Catholics so seriously, and bother to read Aquinas, is precisely because they are concerned with reason and its challenges to their faith.

And the religious people I respect the most all acknowledge that faith is not something that I have, and that it involves work, and worry/

Quote from: AkrasiaYes, yes, how tireseome.

Now, we are limited, fallible human beings. So perhaps the argument fails for some reason that I cannot comprehend.

But I should form my beliefs on the basis of the best arguments and evidence available. This is certainly compatible with recognising that I have limited evidence and cognitive abilities.

If your evidence and cognitive abilities were just a wee bit higher, then maybe you'd recognize that the human brain is far too small to be able to comprehend EVERYTHING, and that therefore making moral judgements on the definition of what would be "good" actions or "nongood" actions on a supposed all-powerful entity is a pretty asinine thing to do.

Your argument there doesn't "answer" the issue of god's omnipotence, it is just you ignoring reality in the face of your own defeat.  Its like saying "well yes, I realize that I cannot possibly have the strength to stop the sun from setting, but I'm going to go out and do it anyways because its logical for me to attempt it with as much strength as I can muster".  In fact, the logical thing would be for you to realize that its beyond you.

This is why fanatical atheists are NOT in fact any more rational human beings than the Christians they get their panties so in a knot about.  They're as desperate to prove that god doesn't exist for the sake of their own self-worth as Christians are to prove that god does.

RPGPundit

Quote from: AkrasiaI quite agree that that is a good argument.

As I've said many times: arguments are not mutually exclusive!

Why did you ever think otherwise? :confused:

I never suggested they were. But your triumphalist attitude continues to suggest that you've somehow accomplished something and defeated any notion of the possibility of god existing ever, just by rehashing that old chestnut of the "problem of evil". Its pretty silly, frankly. The sort of thing I'd expect from a very pretentious 1st-year university student.

RPGPundit

Quote from: AkrasiaAnd the religious people I respect the most all acknowledge that faith is not something that I have, and that it involves work, and worry/

You appear to have a tremendous amount of faith in the non-existence of god.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltThis is like arguing with a fundamentalist. All your premises are true to you. Your faith in these statements makes your argument correct.  

Well, in addition to Christian philosophers like Augustine, Aquinas, Leibniz, Ockham, and so forth.  Yeah, I'm the 'fundamentalist'!  :rolleyes:

Look, Bill, Christians, Jews, and Muslims have also shared my 'premises' throughout history.  

I've had good discussins with them.

Quote from: HinterWeltYou equate Good = Omnibenevolent. These are not equivalent.

I agree.  But while I hate repeating myself, if God is perfect, then he is perfectly good.  Jews, Christians, and Muslims all agree on that.  Go back and read earlier posts for more information ...

Quote from: HinterWeltI do not need to validate my beliefs by disproving someone else's faith.

Well, if you believe x, and someone else believes not-x, then there is simply no fucking way to 'validate' your belief in x without disproving the belief in not-x.

Example:

"Do you belive that the sun goes around the earth, or that the earth goes around the sun?"

Validate your belief by invalidating the other.

Quote from: HinterWeltSad.

Your grasp of logic, Bill.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou appear to have a tremendous amount of faith in the non-existence of god.

RPGPundit

No ...  :confused:

Quote from: RPGPunditI never suggested they were. But your triumphalist attitude continues to suggest that you've somehow accomplished something and defeated any notion of the possibility of god existing ever, just by rehashing that old chestnut of the "problem of evil". Its pretty silly, frankly. The sort of thing I'd expect from a very pretentious 1st-year university student.

RPGPundit

Given the lameness of the answers to the "problem of evil" argument (and your own rather surprisingly weak posts on the topic; didn't you achieve a Masters or something on this topic?), I have to say that the 'triumphalist' attitude is not unwarranted.

But, as I have been at fucking pains over an over again to explain, it is not the only fucking argument around.  

If people hadn't continually made arses of themselves in trying to refute it with sophomoric responses, we could have moved on by now.
:pundit:

Quote from: RPGPunditIf your evidence and cognitive abilities were just a wee bit higher, then maybe you'd recognize that the human brain is far too small to be able to comprehend EVERYTHING, and that therefore making moral judgements on the definition of what would be "good" actions or "nongood" actions on a supposed all-powerful entity is a pretty asinine thing to do.

Wow.  Missing the point ... big time ... you need to read James' sophomoric posts on this same topic (charming in 19 year olds... but ...) :rolleyes:

The whole point of the problem of evil is that, given what we know about the world and what the main monotheistic religions tell us about God, a loving God does not look likely to be on the cards.

This is compatible with recognising human limitations.

I mean, we don’t need to know EVERYTHING in order to know that string theory is more likely true than Aristotelian physics!  (

Quote from: RPGPunditYour argument there doesn't "answer" the issue of god's omnipotence, it is just you ignoring reality in the face of your own defeat.  Its like saying "well yes, I realize that I cannot possibly have the strength to stop the sun from setting, but I'm going to go out and do it anyways because its logical for me to attempt it with as much strength as I can muster".  In fact, the logical thing would be for you to realize that its beyond you.

Um ... no.  In fact, this makes no fucking sense.  :pundit:

Quote from: RPGPunditThis is why fanatical atheists are NOT in fact any more rational human beings than the Christians they get their panties so in a knot about.  They're as desperate to prove that god doesn't exist for the sake of their own self-worth as Christians are to prove that god does.

RPGPundit

This is bullshit, tiresome ad hominem crap.   When you have to resort to this, you should know that your position is weak

Give me arguments!  Give me logic.

(Good luck!)

Quote from: AkrasiaI agree.  But while I hate repeating myself, if God is perfect, then he is perfectly good.  

Yes, but you aren't. And therefore, cannot know what "perfectly good" even looks like.


RPGPundit

Quote from: AkrasiaGiven the lameness of the answers to the "problem of evil" argument (and your own rather surprisingly weak posts on the topic; didn't you achieve a Masters or something on this topic?), I have to say that the 'triumphalist' attitude is not unwarranted.

Not specifically on this topic, no, but on religious history.
In any case, if my posts are "surprisingly weak" it surprises me that you've so utterly failed to refute them.  Instead, you choose to try to dodge the argument altogether, conveniently ignore the fact that you are not omnipotent, and claim victory. How sad.

RPGPundit

Quote from: AkrasiaWow.  Missing the point ... big time ... you need to read James' sophomoric posts on this same topic (charming in 19 year olds... but ...) :rolleyes:

The whole point of the problem of evil is that, given what we know about the world and what the main monotheistic religions tell us about God, a loving God does not look likely to be on the cards.

This is compatible with recognising human limitations.´

Yes, that's all very well and good for ESTABLISHING the problem of evil.  But it does you no good whatsoever with using that to prove the nonexistence of god.  The problem of evil is a human problem, not a problem with God.  Any cleric worth his weight could say that the problem is thus a limit in our capacity to understand "god's plan", or yes, even the very fullest type of nature of his goodness and love.

Its why it absolutely stuns me that you're being so fucking pigheaded about this.  Both in continuing to pretend that you have somehow disproven god with this stupid ass argument of yours, and in clinging to this argument for dear life like it was the best one you could possibly make.

If this is the best you have, you've got nothing, bud.
Like I said, even attacking the "Humanity" of the judeo-christian god is a far better way to criticize judeo christian religion than the problem of evil. Fuck.

QuoteUm ... no.  In fact, this makes no fucking sense.  :pundit:

It makes no sense to recognize that fucking GOD might be beyond your capacity for understanding? Wow.. and they say I have a big ego.

If a cat or a dog is incapable of understanding, much less judging, so many of the things we do, how the hell do you claim to know what and why God does?

QuoteThis is bullshit, tiresome ad hominem crap.   When you have to resort to this, you should know that your position is weak

Give me arguments!  Give me logic.

I will as soon as you start to.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIn any case, if my posts are "surprisingly weak" it surprises me that you've so utterly failed to refute them...

You can lead a horse to water ...  

Quote from: RPGPunditInstead, you choose to try to dodge the argument altogether...

When?  Where?   :confused:

Quote from: RPGPundit....
conveniently ignore the fact that you are not omnipotent....

I've always been painfully aware that I'm not omnipotent!  
 
I merely claimed to be a good (not great!) inductive and abductive reasoner.  

Quote from: RPGPundit... and claim victory. How sad....

Oh yes.  How sad. :pundit:  :confused:

Where do you dodge it? Ok, let me spell this out very fucking clearly to you: how can you define what god's omnibenevolence would be like? If you are not yourself omnibenevolent, you cannot know what is or is not good as God would see it.

So you can do just fine at what you have admitted to doing, which is defining it in human terms, and expressing that, as a human being, you are unhappy with how god's alleged omnibenevolence manifests in the world, but that is a HUMAN definition of a HUMAN problem. Its a good way of saying you're pissed at god, not a good way of saying "god can't possibly exist". Not even in the judeo-christian viewpoint.

RPGPundit