Your ignorance is showing.

Actually not many are aware of that little fact even now. Or dont make the connection.

Though from some accounts she may have been honestly trying to promote Buck Rogers and her grandfathers works. From what other have said the coffetable  book collection of the strips was well done. But at the end up the day she was still pulling royalties from her own company on top of her paycheck.

Quote from: Omega;999413Loraine pulled royalties from every BR product TSR made.

Which affects my game how?

Quote from: finarvyn;999421I've recently discovered "The Expanse" through both novels and syfy TV series, and I was thinking that XXVc would be a good rules set for that setting.

Filing off the serial numbers for XXVc is pretty much my dream OSR. I would put money into that because there is no way I could do the work all myself unless a medical miracle happens.

I think the game could have done better but it was in a weird territory. Attaching an IP to it in itself is not a bad idea, after all XXVc is basically an original setting that just happens to have Buck Rogers in it. However, I think many were put off because of associations with the 70s TV series which is a shame. I read lots of Asimov as a kid, which was my gateway to Golden Age and Pre Golden Age Science Fiction, so after reading the tie in books I immediately read Nowlan's Armageddon 2419 which is nothing like later iterations.

Maybe if the game had been released as an original setting without being tied to an IP then it might have been more enduring. XXVc has a small niche in a niche recursion fandom. Negative associations with the IP, aka the TV Show, might have impacted more casual D&D players who might otherwise have been previously drawn to Gamma World and Star Frontiers. Of course I realize it is highly unlikely the setting would have emerged without the Buck Rogers IP.

The Rules were a very good use of AD&D 2e. I liked the skill system, and I liked the fact that I could import material from AD&D (including the previously mentioned Battle System for big battles) including indirectly Star Frontiers since the main races conveniently appeared in Spelljammer, though sometimes with slightly different names (Yazirian/Hadozee). And of course the wealth of 1e and BECMI/RC D&D including other products with technology. But you didn't need it. Add in the Hardware book to the boxed set and you have all the technology you could want short of FTL travel. Weapons were imaginative and definitely took inspiration from speculative science, including rocket rifles, gyro jet guns, lasers in the visible and invisible spectrum as well as masers.

The No Humans Allowed supplement was pretty much a book of player character races. The only real limitation in comparison with AD&D was the number of character classes available, and that wasn't exactly a bad limitation. You still had six classes to choose from, seven if you included the scientist. Even using the box set on it's own gave you everything you could need for a campaign.

The novels were worth reading inasmuch as they fleshed out the solar system. The location supplements were very handy as well. You could run an entire campaign on Venus or Mars if you wanted. You could live on a rocket and travel around, or mine asteroids if that was your thing.

What I liked was the fact that the game was set in the solar system. If you are like me, you know the solar system. This game also came out at a time that computers were starting to be quite useful. I had a 486 Computer that I made from parts found at a Sally Ann and had a disk with astronomy stuff so I could do things like enter a specific date and it would show me where the planets were. It's kind of handy to know if you need to go to Mars if the Sun is in your way. Nowadays, you can get the same information in a web browser or an app store for your phone of choice. My point is that the solar system is something that we know. When I say Jupiter, you think of the big striped ball with the red spot. If I say Saturn, you see rings. If I say Uranus... Yeah maybe skip that one... But we all know the names, or at least a decent amount of them. This is also what helped shows like Starhunter and Cowboy Bebop appeal to me. It's science fiction, but it's rooted in stuff that includes things you can see with your own eyes just looking up. If I tell my players that they are going to Mars and the planet is actually visible in the night sky, that creates an impact with them.

@finarvyn sorry if my reply to you was more a general observation. I have as yet not watched The Expanse. If it is solar system based then yes I think XXVc would be a good fitting if you want to run your Sci-Fi like AD&D, I say without irony. XXVc has enough material that it can be adapted to just about any other setting. Buck Rogers feels almost incidental. You can run hard science with it and not feel bad about skimping on details that other systems offer. It also has the advantage of being a system that most pen and paper gamers already know how to play. You drop character sheets for any D&D group, and they'll grok it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999338All that said, I can see where LW may honestly have thought Buck Rodgers would be profitable.  A thing known as "George's low-budget silly space movie that the studio let him make as a favor for his success with American Graffiti" turned into "one of the top grossing movies of all time," after all.

Every time someone says something along the lines of 'how did this get made,' I remind them that you don't know ahead of time which one will succeed. Heck, if you had handed any of us the scripts for The Matrix and the Super Mario Brother movie in say 1985, I doubt any of us could predict which one would succeed.

Quote from: Krimson;999441@finarvyn sorry if my reply to you was more a general observation. I have as yet not watched The Expanse. If it is solar system based then yes I think XXVc would be a good fitting if you want to run your Sci-Fi like AD&D, I say without irony. XXVc has enough material that it can be adapted to just about any other setting. Buck Rogers feels almost incidental. You can run hard science with it and not feel bad about skimping on details that other systems offer. It also has the advantage of being a system that most pen and paper gamers already know how to play. You drop character sheets for any D&D group, and they'll grok it.

No, your reply was awesome and gets me thinking about how I can use XXVc in various settings. It's okay if you have no Expanse experience.

If I had to guess where the TV show went wrong it'd be in the board room where the executives were trying to hit all the numbers to make a hit show that wouldn't cost as much as Battle Star Galactica.  If I had to fix the show I'd do the following things.

Lose the white disco suit uniforms for something in grey or another subdued color.
Stop trying to turn Buck into a hip, swinging sex pot.
Stop assuming that the old way, the Buck way is always best.  Let the targeting computers work.
Redesign Twinkie to be utilitarian and get rid of the bedebedebbede thing.  If he has to pick up some twentieth century quirks let some of them be good and some of them disastrous.
Get a good recurring villain who reflects Buck's strengths and shows his weaknesses.

As for LW, I'd suggest that promoting Buck Rogers was in her best interest and it's safe to assume she hoped for success and high sales.

Quote from: David Johansen;999517Lose the white disco suit uniforms for something in grey or another subdued color.

Star Trek tried that with "The Motion Picture." Disco suits are awesome.

Quote from: David Johansen;999517Stop trying to turn Buck into a hip, swinging sex pot.

Buck is a hip, swinging sexpot, there is no trying involved.

Quote from: David Johansen;999517Stop assuming that the old way, the Buck way is always best.  Let the targeting computers work.

The old ways are always best.

Quote from: David Johansen;999517Redesign Twinkie to be utilitarian and get rid of the bedebedebbede thing.  If he has to pick up some twentieth century quirks let some of them be good and some of them disastrous.

Bedebedebede, no way!

Quote from: David Johansen;999517Get a good recurring villain who reflects Buck's strengths and shows his weaknesses.

Okay.

Mostly sounds like you want a "reimagined" show that does away with all the 1970s charm, much like that godawful po-faced Battlestar Galactica remake?

No, not quite, just less corny and obnoxious.  More adventure, more danger, less painful humour.

You are, of course, welcome to like the show as it is.  I'm talking about making it more successful in its place and time.

New BSG is a mixed bag for me.  On the one hand the very premise of the show is incredibly grim and a bit of po-face seems appropriate but on the other hand it's pretty smug and pretentious which never helps anything.

As a disco music fan (yes, seriously), I like the white disco uniforms.  I even own the soundtracks to the Buck Rogers movie and first season.  Some of it is quite funkoriffic.

I'm not sure if they should have made the little robot look more or less like a hardon.

Quote from: David Johansen;999517Redesign Twinkie to be utilitarian and get rid of the bedebedebbede thing.

Quote from: Omega;999426Your ignorance is showing.

Actually not many are aware of that little fact even now. Or dont make the connection.

Though from some accounts she may have been honestly trying to promote Buck Rogers and her grandfathers works. From what other have said the coffetable  book collection of the strips was well done. But at the end up the day she was still pulling royalties from her own company on top of her paycheck.

Are you sure you know what the word ignorance means?

Actually it is the only thing you hear when this game comes up so I don't know who isn't aware of the fact that she was tied to the Dille estate.

But please present actually evidence that she was personally pulling royalties and then stop derailing the thread. And by evidence I mean more than 'someone with an intense dislike of her said it on the net.'

Even if true it is all ancient history and of little relevance to discussing the game itself.

Imagine if ever thread on D&D involved someone popping in to complain about Gygax ripping off Arneson?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999542I'm not sure if they should have made the little robot look more or less like a hardon.

Definitely more. They should have named him Steely Dan.

Quote from: David Johansen;999526No, not quite, just less corny and obnoxious.  More adventure, more danger, less painful humour.

You are, of course, welcome to like the show as it is.  I'm talking about making it more successful in its place and time.

New BSG is a mixed bag for me.  On the one hand the very premise of the show is incredibly grim and a bit of po-face seems appropriate but on the other hand it's pretty smug and pretentious which never helps anything.

It was the smug pretentiousness that turned me off it, mainly. That and the weird idea that we should somehow be sympathetic to the poor Cylons. I was firmly in the "kill the toasters" camp. I also lost interest when the president lady turned into a mystic seer/visionary.

Quote from: Celestial;999532As a disco music fan (yes, seriously), I like the white disco uniforms.  I even own the soundtracks to the Buck Rogers movie and first season.  Some of it is quite funkoriffic.

Agree on the uniforms, more damaging was the cheap sets but ST had cheap sets too, this was TV sf after all.

I need to get these soundtracks.

I think it was KVOS who promoted the Buck Rogers reruns with the inspired tag line 'The Future Never Looked More 70s!'