Here is Gronan's quote you 'absolutely' agreed with:

"Treasure hunters who happened to team up for a while, friendly rivals, or even out and out cutthroats. If you were anything but a Cleric or one of the occasional very rare Paladins, you were "Neutral".

The default is "Get gold, become name level, become a stronghold holder, and become a Power in the World." And only one ass fits on that throne."

That is not reflective of Fafhrd and Gray Mouser at all.

Okay, dude, you win. I surrender.

Sorry if the truth get you down, dude.

I can do naught but cry out "vae victis" and accept my fate.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992767"Treasure hunters"
"Get gold"

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;992771Fortune and glory.

Quote from: Voros;992813Fafhrd and Gray Mouser are out for fortune

Quote from: Voros;992817That is not reflective of Fafhrd and Gray Mouser at all.

Eh?  Fuck it, I'm going to bed.

Come on CKruger you have to cherry pick those phrases and ignore the rest:

"The default is "Get gold, become name level, become a stronghold holder, and become a Power in the World." And only one ass fits on that throne."

That may be world of Nehwon but it is not how Fafhrd and Gray Mouser behave, in the early stories they have no interest in amassing worldly power and in the later stories they have romantic and communal ties and responsibilites but are hardly a Power in the World where only one can be on top.

"Treasure hunters who happened to team up for a while, friendly rivals, or even out and out cutthroats."

Mouser and Fafhrd are incredibly good friends, far from cutthroats who team up for a while or even friendly rivals. In many stories they are motivated by gold in the same way Han Solo is, they are rogues with hearts of gold and as often motivated by friendship, love, lust and community.

What Gronan describes fits the books of Glen Cook or Joe Abercrombie more so than Leiber. Leiber is far too humourous, generous and clever to buy into grimdark cynicism (not that Cook or even Abercrombie are just that either).

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;992830I can do naught but cry out "vae victis" and accept my fate.

:eek:

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992767Absolutely, positively, indubitably, undoubtedly not!  The intention and vibe was much more "Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser," or at best "The Governor and Company of Adventurers of England trading into Hudson's Bay".  Treasure hunters who happened to team up for a while, friendly rivals, or even out and out cutthroats.  If you were anything but a Cleric or one of the occasional very rare Paladins, you were "Neutral".

The default is "Get gold, become name level, become a stronghold holder, and become a Power in the World."  And only one ass fits on that throne.

  I really need to sit down one of these days and work out modifications and alternatives for those of us who actually like the Lawful/Good default, heroic epic quest model.

Quote from: Voros;992835Come on CKruger you have to cherry pick those phrases and ignore the rest:

"The default is "Get gold, become name level, become a stronghold holder, and become a Power in the World." And only one ass fits on that throne."

That may be world of Nehwon but it is not how Fafhrd and Gray Mouser behave, in the early stories they have no interest in amassing worldly power and in the later stories they have romantic and communal ties and responsibilites but are hardly a Power in the World where only one can be on top.

"Treasure hunters who happened to team up for a while, friendly rivals, or even out and out cutthroats."

Mouser and Fafhrd are incredibly good friends, far from cutthroats who team up for a while or even friendly rivals. In many stories they are motivated by gold in the same way Han Solo is, they are rogues with hearts of gold and as often motivated by friendship, love, lust and community.

What Gronan describes fits the books of Glen Cook or Joe Abercrombie more so than Leiber. Leiber is far too humourous, generous and clever to buy into grimdark cynicism (not that Cook or even Abercrombie are just that either).

You're the one who was going forum warrior for exactitudes and then said "not at all".  Live like Rainman, die like Rainman.

I'll agree 100% of what Gronan said is not Leiber, I also don't think that's exactly what PJ meant, as what he said himself wasn't 100% of what Gronan said, it was more a "Sword and Sorcery" not "Epic High Fantasy" statement.

It seems more like a pet peeve got grazed than any deliberate mischaracterization of Leiber's writing.

True, nothing against Gronan, I think the style of play he describes is a fun approach myself. As a big Leiber fan as you know I often find the talk of his writing a bit reductive is all.

And in terms of what Armchair said regarding heroic play, the inclusion of the Paladin and even the cleric make it pretty clear that Lawful heroic play was more than just possible using D&D.

Quote from: CRKrueger;992941You're the one who was going forum warrior for exactitudes and then said "not at all".  Live like Rainman, die like Rainman.

I'll agree 100% of what Gronan said is not Leiber, I also don't think that's exactly what PJ meant, as what he said himself wasn't 100% of what Gronan said, it was more a "Sword and Sorcery" not "Epic High Fantasy" statement.

It seems more like a pet peeve got grazed than any deliberate mischaracterization of Leiber's writing.

Pedantry is the recourse of those who have nothing to say but cannot bear to remain silent.

Quote from: GrabtharsHammer;992797The more I research how people play the older versions this seems to be a very common thread, or at least some combination of the two, maybe even some OD&D sprinkled in too. Fantastic stuff, love hearing about this kind of thing

It wasn't just the grognards of the period taking that approach, many kids and teens played a mashup of B/X or Red Box and AD&D 1e. Often without fulling realizing it as they skipped most of the rules in AD&D and went straight to the magic items, spells and MM.

QuoteAnd in terms of what Armchair said regarding heroic play, the inclusion of the Paladin and even the cleric make it pretty clear that Lawful heroic play was more than just possible using D&D.

Possible, yes, by all means. But are the as-written rules of OD&D, Basic, or AD&D the best for it, or could they be tweaked to better encourage and support it?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;992901I really need to sit down one of these days and work out modifications and alternatives for those of us who actually like the Lawful/Good default, heroic epic quest model.

You don't have to do anything except role play.

LG types are generally well liked, especially the Paladin (check out loyalty/reaction bonuses - and Pally's CHA starts at 17). It follows that many people will naturally want to help and reward them, more so than a bunch of wandering graverobbers. Good takes care of good, something non good types find hard to believe.

Quote from: GrabtharsHammer;992797The more I research how people play the older versions this seems to be a very common thread, or at least some combination of the two, maybe even some OD&D sprinkled in too. Fantastic stuff, love hearing about this kind of thing

Basic (3 versions!)  and AD&D were not released as complete games, but rolled out over a period of years, so if you started in the later 70's it was necessary to mix and match whatever rules from whatever editions were available. Of course OD&D also had its own supplement library, but it was released as its own thing. But yeah, still similar.

For example, the first year of gaming we had a mash of Holmes, Monster Manual, White Box and.Blackmoor supplement (somehow we missed Greyhawk). And then we discovered Dragon  and White Dwarf. More stuff to try out.

First time I met an AD&D by-the-book type* was in 1984. All his books were pristine. It was like these were his sacred texts, and the rest of us veterans just wanted to rock and roll.

*Don't trust those people. They are gaming vampires, trying to suck out your fun.