Quote from: Headless;986679Hey old guys!

What did Gygax do about indoor fighting.  Were there rules about how much space you need to swing a sword in early editions?  

I ask becuase I have a cardboard tube about tje size of a Nodashi.  And I tried to take an over hand stance like the Cardboard tube Samurai.  No dice hit the ceiling.  

It got me thinking.  I don't know that I have ever been in a game where large weapons and wide swings were penalised.  And if we ever were we told the DM that was no fun, it was probably just too much book keeping.  

Anyone play where narrow corridors are actully an encumbrance to fighting?

I don't remember many corridors in early gaming that were narrow enough to be a problem. Even those of us who did not run modules generally followed the tradition of the fairly wide corridor with reasonably high ceilings. I remember being in a corridor that was too low to swing a greatsword confidently, so I thrust with it. How many could fight abreast in a given corridor might vary by weapon type but we rarely met any breasts in dungeons. More's the pity.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;986887Apropos of nothing, does anything else think the thread title would make a great title for a BESM dungeon-crawling supplement?

It does sound like the punchline of a 'blue' joke...

The other weapon that has serious issues with low ceilings is bows. To get range you shoot in a parabolic arc.  Crossbows on the other hand have a nice flat shooting trajectory.

Quote from: DavetheLost;987097The other weapon that has serious issues with low ceilings is bows. To get range you shoot in a parabolic arc.  Crossbows on the other hand have a nice flat shooting trajectory.

A bow is just as flat shooting as a cross bow. I don't ever seem to recall pointing my bow at the sky to shoot a deer from my ground blind at 30 yards. The only time that would come into effect would be at long range. Which the crossbow bolt would be affected in the same way. All projectiles are subjected to drop at range. The amount of drop being determined by draw strength of bow, weight of projectile, range, and etc.

Quote from: Headless;986780Yeah, but how high was the ceiling?  10 feet?  Not high enough for a great sword.  Fuck right off with a long spear.

I was reading somewhere, and I forget where now. That zweihander/two handed/greatswords were actually used a lot like a spear, but are more versatile. So in a confined hallway, they could be used in more of a two handed spear grip to stab. Still not the best weapon for the situation. But perhaps more useful than thought at first blush.

I think the reality is you wouldn't want to fight in a confined space like that with anything other than a very short hacking/bashing weapon or a short to medium length thrusting weapon. I've never seen a game rule set that really deals with this, but it wouldn't be hard to fold into something like GURPS where you have a detailed tacttical map

Quote from: Ronin;987105A bow is just as flat shooting as a cross bow. I don't ever seem to recall pointing my bow at the sky to shoot a deer from my ground blind at 30 yards. The only time that would come into effect would be at long range. Which the crossbow bolt would be affected in the same way. All projectiles are subjected to drop at range. The amount of drop being determined by draw strength of bow, weight of projectile, range, and etc.

He's talking about massed archers shooting a long distance, I suppose, like at the Battle of Agincourt or the Battle of Crecy.

Quote from: Dumarest;987980He's talking about massed archers shooting a long distance, I suppose, like at the Battle of Agincourt or the Battle of Crecy.

No way you could do that in a 10x10 hallway.

Quote from: Bren;987988No way you could do that in a 10x10 hallway.

I could have sworn Crecy was fought here:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1483[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1483[/ATTACH]

No that's Agincourt. The court is on the left through the arched windows.

thinking about my mythras game on this, I think i'd say:

1) 10' wide (lets ignore ceilings for the moment) can half one guy with a Huge or smaller weapon (two handed swords, etc), or two with Medium or smaller weapons side by side. I'd probably allow for shields to count as 2 sizes smaller for this (most are Large or Huge). You can add one more person if everyone is using weapons with the Impale trait.

2) from 5-10', Large and Huge weapons suck a step of difficulty (1/3 off skill) unless they have the Impale trait - this allows halberds and spear types to operate unhindered. Also, Large and Huge lose the Bleed trait if it has it, because it's hard to get a good swing. 2 can fit here with Impale, or one medium size swinging weapon.

3) under 5', one guy, regardless of weapon size. Medium weapons also experience a step of difficulty.

still kind of beta I think. Huge weapons might require more than 10', but I think I'm thinking Impale = 1 or 2 sizes less for room to use. i feel like a dane axe with a 5'+ haft is looking at needing more than 10' of swing area.

The D&D 5E way:  If it's borderline, allow it, no changes.  If it's an obvious disadvantage, apply the disadvantage rule to attacks with the weapon.  Net result is that a character will only use such a weapon in a situation where they really don't have much choice.  Which means, most of the time you get the effects of a more complicated rule with no overhead.

Of course, in some situations, defense in a crowded hallway would be more difficult as well.  As bad as it would be maneuvering two or three spears in a line down a 10 foot wide hall, I'd rather be doing that than be on the receiving end.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;988055The D&D 5E way:  If it's borderline, allow it, no changes.  If it's an obvious disadvantage, apply the disadvantage rule to attacks with the weapon.  Net result is that a character will only use such a weapon in a situation where they really don't have much choice.  Which means, most of the time you get the effects of a more complicated rule with no overhead.

Of course, in some situations, defense in a crowded hallway would be more difficult as well.  As bad as it would be maneuvering two or three spears in a line down a 10 foot wide hall, I'd rather be doing that than be on the receiving end.

I actually used this last week.  I more or less used the same idea, unless the players used short/thrusting weapons.  It actually benefited most of the players as the Orcs were using great axes, and the PC's were mostly archers and short sword wielders, or the PC had the proper gear.  Was kinda cool to see.

I used to do some training with two handed swords (proxy, of course... no stabbing people in the face for realz. Sad.) when I lived in Tennessee years ago. SCA stuff, though I never really got into the organization/tournaments... just fighting practice with muh buds, including the local.. um?.. marshall?


Anyway: It was a real eye opener about how they were/could be used, both offensively and defensively... and no white-box theory-crafting, some dude with many many hours of practice was trying to wail on you at the same time for real bruises.


My take there is that the trained fighter types should have no problems in confined spaces, any more than any other odd environmental issues (like... a friend standing inside your backswing arc), as that's just part of the job of stabbing people in the face for fun and profit.   Unless you really want cinema style combat, but I'm sure if I really wanted to I could find some awesome kung-fu scenes of people using absurdly large weapons in absurdly small spaces.  I mean: If I can find 'punching people in the face underwater with sharks', I'm sure I can find 'two handed sword fights inside a coffin'.

For really large weapons that need to be swung, if in cramped conditions, I impose disad on attack rolls. It can create some tactical choices on positioning or swapping out for back up weapons.