Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;977678Post 212, to be precise.

And sure, you can do whatever you want, it's your game.  But in a game where the designer considered 15th level to be extremely high and 20th level to be nonpareil, don't be surprised if around level 35 she starts to come apart at the seams.

Exactly.

We've known this for *decades*. Yet people keep insisting, or pretending, this is not the case. St. Gary said it. We've all defied/denied him at some point, and saw it for ourselves (for some, MANY TIMES)- for fuck's sake people, this thread is 27-pages long, it exists *because* it's largely true (like all systems). The math around the core d20 mechanics do not hold up beyond the "sweet spot" (which for me is 7th-12th for "high-level" play). Once you hit 15th? You're doing the work of the Gods, and the game becomes this lumbering onerous behemoth that honestly needs to be re-scaled (see Palladium games)

And I'm not saying you can't play D&D of any edition at higher levels. I'm saying that the conceits of the game with ever-increasing magic-bloat, itemization issues, pushes the core-mechanics beyond their own boundaries into near irrelevancy unless you're willing to do a lot of extrapolation on the math. Earlier editions are *far* more forgiving. Once you get to 3e... the shit goes flying out the window.

Edit: I think I have a 19th level Pathfinder NPC whose stat-bloc is *3-pages long* to prove it.

It's not "booger-eatingly stupid," it's "most people are booger-eating morons."

If you're going to quote me, please get it right.

Quote from: tenbones;977805And I'm not saying you can't play D&D of any edition at higher levels. I'm saying that the conceits of the game with ever-increasing magic-bloat, itemization issues, pushes the core-mechanics beyond their own boundaries into near irrelevancy unless you're willing to do a lot of extrapolation on the math. Earlier editions are *far* more forgiving. Once you get to 3e... the shit goes flying out the window.

Edit: I think I have a 19th level Pathfinder NPC whose stat-bloc is *3-pages long* to prove it.

I've experienced 3e in this stage and its pretty true. I've played 4e in Epic and its somewhat less. Sure the numbers are bigger but overall you have the same resource-management at 24th level as you do at 9th or 15th. I haven't played 5e past 10th level so I don't know how bad it is...?

Quote from: tenbones;977805Exactly.

We've known this for *decades*. Yet people keep insisting, or pretending, this is not the case. St. Gary said it. We've all defied/denied him at some point, and saw it for ourselves (for some, MANY TIMES)- for fuck's sake people, this thread is 27-pages long, it exists *because* it's largely true (like all systems). The math around the core d20 mechanics do not hold up beyond the "sweet spot" (which for me is 7th-12th for "high-level" play). Once you hit 15th? You're doing the work of the Gods, and the game becomes this lumbering onerous behemoth that honestly needs to be re-scaled (see Palladium games)

And I'm not saying you can't play D&D of any edition at higher levels. I'm saying that the conceits of the game with ever-increasing magic-bloat, itemization issues, pushes the core-mechanics beyond their own boundaries into near irrelevancy unless you're willing to do a lot of extrapolation on the math. Earlier editions are *far* more forgiving. Once you get to 3e... the shit goes flying out the window.

Edit: I think I have a 19th level Pathfinder NPC whose stat-bloc is *3-pages long* to prove it.

Yup. Any fixed range variable (dice, cards, etc.) shall fail to meaningfully contain infinity. The formula's usage of the fixed range variable defines the meaningful playable range. After that point, you should stop play, or stop complaining.

Relatable life has limits. That's part of its fun. Embrace them.

Quote from: Opaopajr;978254Yup. Any fixed range variable (dice, cards, etc.) shall fail to meaningfully contain infinity. The formula's usage of the fixed range variable defines the meaningful playable range. After that point, you should stop play, or stop complaining.

Relatable life has limits. That's part of its fun. Embrace them.

There are ways around that that don't compromise the game mechanics. But more or less, they rely on changing the scale of the game.
If you play Spears of the Dawn, Scarlet Heroes and Godbound with the same character, switching to a new game once you reach the maximum level, and you'd see what I mean.

Even 5e, with its supposedly bounded accuracy, runs into a problem with save DCs eventually hitting the 20s. Tiamat has DC 27 saves on her breath attacks, making it impossible for anyone who is non-proficient in DEX saves to pass.

This is precisely why I've largely moved away from d20. I'm looking for something that scales much better, much broader, and can reach those "high-levels" of play that really let your PC's do the "demi-god" kind of thing. D&D doesn't do that smoothly because mechanically it was never really meant to, no matter what WotC's versions say.

My test-run of Forgotten Realms using Savage Worlds made me feel like it was fresh again. Players weren't shoe-horned into roles that bucked the direction of the game. You could do high-level play, fantastically high-level by any standard, because SW scales pretty well (especially if you use the Rifts or Supers material). And other systems can do this too, and some I'm sure, do it better.

I'm not knocking D&D, I'm knocking the "designers" of later editions that are ultimately blowing sunshine up everyone's collective asses pretending d20 *does* do this level of play WELL. It doesn't. It never has - but it could. You'd just have to re-scale things and make it steeper and beefier of a climb.

Quote from: tenbones;978423This is precisely why I've largely moved away from d20. I'm looking for something that scales much better, much broader, and can reach those "high-levels" of play that really let your PC's do the "demi-god" kind of thing. D&D doesn't do that smoothly because mechanically it was never really meant to, no matter what WotC's versions say.

Definitely true of D&D, and I'm sure there are some good games for playing demigods. I'm not sure, however, that there really are any games that truly scale better and broader, just ones that have a sweet spot that covers the demi-god region. I'm convinced that a single ruleset probably would suffer in overall quality if it also had to have an infinitely broad ability to scale (or at least from swineherd to near-god)*.

Some systems, like GURPS or Champions/HERO, you theoretically can put any level of power in, but honestly, they tend to get kinda gooey at either end of the spectrum (building a village idiot on 5 points and the local dirt farmer on 10 points doesn't necessarily do anything except make you feel like you've done something to distinguish the two. Same wonkiness at 1000 pts vs. 1200 pts).

For my money, I'd rather take Asen's idea and use a system designed for a given power range when playing in that range, and switch it out if a threshold is crossed.

*I'm beginning to think this more and more in general--there's no one perfect system, so if you try too hard to achieve one goal, it detracts from the others.

From my perspective on the oD&D material, it has this baked in. But so many people didn't have knowledgeable players to model/learn this play style from and it got dropped. In the oldest campaigns play shifted from "adventuring party of heroic individuals" to "wargame/political map campaign" at Name Level. That's why so many of the wilderness random encounters have huge numbers of orcs, etc. They're not threats for the party, they're threats fro the party's castle/tower/church and followers/food-sources/resources. Depending on Reaction Roll, they could be trade or alliance opportunities, which may shift the balance of power between the Lords in the local region. In this way, a traveling group of PCs and followers changes the political landscape of the game as they generate wilderness RE checks.

In this mode, each Name Level PC has a force of henchmen and followers and a stronghold to be besieged. The players (usually more than a single party's worth, in the "open table" campaigns) make alliances and develop rivalries, combine forces, and lay siege to other Lord's strongholds - PC or NPC. Or they lay siege to dungeons that threaten to become players in the overland politics by acquiring territory. The armies bottle up the location and the teams of high level characters use spec ops tactics to take out the location's threats.

This is the play-style that I want to explore. With airships and flying castles.

My 45th level elf magic-user/assassin killed Sauron and stole his ring in our last session. It was awesome.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;978414Even 5e, with its supposedly bounded accuracy, runs into a problem with save DCs eventually hitting the 20s. Tiamat has DC 27 saves on her breath attacks, making it impossible for anyone who is non-proficient in DEX saves to pass.

Sounds to me like that's a feature, not a problem.

If you're going up against the Queen of Evil Dragons flat-footed, you're going to suffer. Be quick on your feet, or prepare *really thoroughly*.
Maybe you can find an rare elixir that grants temporary proficiency in dex saves, or get that same power as a boon from an appropriate opposed god for some service; or an artifact shield that converts all saves for half damage to half damage / save for no damage (isn't that a high-level class power?). Maybe you make sure your wizards have resistance to her breath weapon covered, or enlist an elemental prince to your cause who stands out front and absorbs the attack.

She's actually intended to easily TPK a level 15 party if she spawns at full strength, so I guess so. But saves in 5e are kind of a known issue. Your non-proficient saves never get better, but DCs for enemy powers keep going up. The annoying thing is that spells usually target WIS, and breath attacks usually target DEX, neither of which the Fighter is proficient in. He can pick up one of those saves if feats are allowed, but you see the issue.

Quote from: AsenRG;978399There are ways around that that don't compromise the game mechanics. But more or less, they rely on changing the scale of the game.
If you play Spears of the Dawn, Scarlet Heroes and Godbound with the same character, switching to a new game once you reach the maximum level, and you'd see what I mean.

Yup, and that is the way to do it. Don't fight infinity, just move your Variable Range wholesale to another Tier Level. It's an aesthetics shift, nothing more. Your formula is not trying to contain all possible play, just what is tier revelant.

"Oooh, there's now an extra placeholder zero behind all your numbers! (But really it's just for looks, shh! We're still playing the same mechanics with a different power level conceit.) Ooh, you're so different & powerful now, ooh! Those orcs & goblins are now 1/10 as powerful as you -- they're mere fractions!" :eek: :cool:

Quote from: Willie the Duck;978449For my money, I'd rather take Asen's idea and use a system designed for a given power range when playing in that range, and switch it out if a threshold is crossed.

*I'm beginning to think this more and more in general--there's no one perfect system, so if you try too hard to achieve one goal, it detracts from the others.

Thanks, but I think I must note that the idea isn't new at all. On Dave Morris blog, and in the discussion on Power Levels in Tianxia's corebook, a similar one was mentioned. I just added the example with different systems:).
Actually, you can do it in the same system. Just "restart" and play a lvl 1 character in the new tier;).
Switching from Spears of the Dawn to Scarlet Heroes is just an example, but you see, suddenly your Fighter who reached Level 1 drops normal people without attacking, and his attacks almost always drop more than one enemy. It's like in DCC when you actually get a PC class and level;)!
Or it's like you just became an actual hero, and the setting started accommodating you more!

So, how would I do that? Well, by changing what the rules for a "basic success" mean, of course.
In crafting, a normal character who just beats the TN has crafted an acceptable lute that might be good enough to give signals in the forest.
A heroic character crafting who just beats the TN has crafted a decent instrument that can be sold.
A mythic character has just crafted a masterpiece, and a higher check might have created an artefact.

In combat, the normal character hitting means he probably hurt his target, unless its armour is good.
The heroic character hitting means he dropped the target, and if its target wasn't good enough, the blow allows him to also drop a couple others.
The mythic character hitting just destroyed a whole squad of 10 people, maybe more, and maybe provoked a morale check on the whole regimen:p!

I think you get the idea.

Quote from: Opaopajr;978778Yup, and that is the way to do it. Don't fight infinity, just move your Variable Range wholesale to another Tier Level. It's an aesthetics shift, nothing more. Your formula is not trying to contain all possible play, just what is tier revelant.

"Oooh, there's now an extra placeholder zero behind all your numbers! (But really it's just for looks, shh! We're still playing the same mechanics with a different power level conceit.) Ooh, you're so different & powerful now, ooh! Those orcs & goblins are now 1/10 as powerful as you -- they're mere fractions!" :eek: :cool:

Yeah, kinda like this:D!

Quote from: tenbones;97842My test-run of Forgotten Realms using Savage Worlds made me feel like it was fresh again. Players weren't shoe-horned into roles that bucked the direction of the game. You could do high-level play, fantastically high-level by any standard, because SW scales pretty well (especially if you use the Rifts or Supers material). And other systems can do this too, and some I'm sure, do it better.

Ive never tried Savage Worlds. In hear its a fun RPG. How well did it mesh with the Forgotten Realms, magic wise? I just downloaded the free Test Drive SW documentcand looks like a lot of playing cards vernacular.