Thanks Lunamancer  & Gronan. I thought that was about it.

Quote from: Skarg;977313Don't the spells also tend to become more important than the hitpoints at high levels?

At lower levels, too. I mean... hold person. Or silence 15' radius. Hell, even web.

Quote from: Skarg;977313Why do the 35th-level murderhoboes get to gang-bang a god, and expect the god not to have any allies or minions or to appear for them and participate in a deathmatch?

Don't the spells also tend to become more important than the hitpoints at high levels?

The god killing is usually possible because the GM lacks the system mastery to run the god's powers as written, and is demonstrably short of tactical acumen so the players always have the upper hand. So they default to being just big bags of hit points with cool loot.

Basically the gods are stupid and people have fun killing stupid.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;977346Because most people are booger-eating morons who are doing well to shit unassisted, which means also that they're dreadful tacticians.

Quote from: saskganesh;977401The god killing is usually possible because the GM lacks the system mastery to run the god's powers as written, and is demonstrably short of tactical acumen so the players always have the upper hand. So they default to being just big bags of hit points with cool loot.

Basically the gods are stupid and people have fun killing stupid.

Which is Old Gamer Speak: "You're Doing It Wrong", and "Your Fun is The Bad Fun."

Jeezu, people, can't you let other people play the game their way, at least?  I get it that it's not your or my fun, but for heaven's sake, this constant whining about how terrible other gamers are for not doing it your way has gotten way past old.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;977402Which is Old Gamer Speak: "You're Doing It Wrong", and "Your Fun is The Bad Fun."

Jeezu, people, can't you let other people play the game their way, at least?  I get it that it's not your or my fun, but for heaven's sake, this constant whining about how terrible other gamers are for not doing it your way has gotten way past old.

No. Its calling out people who bitch about something they broke themselves. And RPGing is chuck full of these nitwits.

"Oh no! I gave the 1st level player a holy avenger +10 and now hes mowing down everything! This game sucks!"
"Oh no! I let four level 20 characters beat up Odin! This game sucks!"
"Oh no! I put a super zoo in the start town and now the druid knows EVERY ANIMAL! This game sucks!"

ad nausuim.

AND

It creates SCARRED FOR LIFE people like you who played D&D wrong and forever after have some totally FUCKED UP idea of what its suppose to be and tell everyone else over and over and over and over how it really is when it AINT.

news at eleven. Move along. move along.

Quote from: Lunamancer;977308My biggest beef with RC, which I guess is also true of BECMI beyond BE, is the weapon mastery rules. It seems like there's some cool there. But it's a lot of data for the DM to juggle, and most of the "cool" is "cool in an over-the-top goofy way that won't fit most of my campaigns except that occasional one I do for shits and giggles." Problem being, the way the more powerful monsters scale up to ridiculous number of hit dice, it seems like the higher level content is built around the weapon mastery system being in use.

I give multiple attacks at higher level, with that you don't need weapon mastery imo.

There are ways to use things wrong, even if you do find it fun -- such as 'pencils make poor suppositories' -- and thus forthcoming complaints about "tool failure" are not equally valid. This should be obvious on its face. Using "badwrongfun" as cover for all unintended usages, and product failure thereabout, is just a lazy excuse.

The More You Know! :cool:

Quote from: S'mon;977479I give multiple attacks at higher level, with that you don't need weapon mastery imo.

Someone at RPGNet did a huge table of math and found that every two levels of mastery is roughly equivalent to an extra damage die.

Quote from: AsenRG;977337I'd guess that it was well-understood at least by the designers. Because the thing you're talking about is no different from a group of 6 soldiers in a wargame;).

Yeah, I guess they would have to be, wouldn't they? This is probably why, against AC 0, threat scales roughly linearly with hit dice for both monsters and fighters. It also makes sense given that Gygax et al. considered 10th level to be very high. The gods in the Greyhawk supplement are all roughly 30th level characters. Heironeous is a 17th level paladin/12th level ranger with 4 attacks, for example. Alone, vs a 10th-level party? Yeah, they might be able to take him. With the typical contingent you'd expect of a god, he's kick the shit out of them, which I think is what Gygax probably expected.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;977514Yeah, I guess they would have to be, wouldn't they? This is probably why, against AC 0, threat scales roughly linearly with hit dice for both monsters and fighters. It also makes sense given that Gygax et al. considered 10th level to be very high. The gods in the Greyhawk supplement are all roughly 30th level characters. Heironeous is a 17th level paladin/12th level ranger with 4 attacks, for example. Alone, vs a 10th-level party? Yeah, they might be able to take him. With the typical contingent you'd expect of a god, he's kick the shit out of them, which I think is what Gygax probably expected.

I'm pretty sure Gronan had mentioned that the stats of the gods were meant as an example of "too high to possibly defeat", but didn't take in account the munchkins;).
Of course, I'd expect that if you were to fight one god, you'd fight also a couple of cohorts. But what the hell are you even doing fighting by yourself at 10th level:D?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;977402Which is Old Gamer Speak: "You're Doing It Wrong", and "Your Fun is The Bad Fun."

Jeezu, people, can't you let other people play the game their way, at least?  I get it that it's not your or my fun, but for heaven's sake, this constant whining about how terrible other gamers are for not doing it your way has gotten way past old.

Speaking for myself, I can say I never once kicked in someone's front door while they were in the middle of the game to make sure they were playing right, hauling people who are playing wrong off to gamer jail, and placing a certified substitute players and GMs to replace them. People can play any way they want to. And I don't even have to state that for it to be the case. In fact, I could state there is one and only one true way to play, and that still doesn't stop people from playing what they want to. Pissing in someone else's Cheerio's is not the issue here, nor is it on any other gaming forum on the internet where nerds who will probably never meet or play together bicker about things without ever being able to effect each others' games.

All that said, let me agree with you 100%. Let fun be the standard. Now be consistent with it.

Turn your head to the title of the thread. Apparently some people aren't having fun. Some people are falling short of the standard. Some people are in fact playing wrong. Has nothing to do with whether or not they're playing by the book. They're failing to have fun.

So you post what you're doing. Someone who is having fun comes along and says, "Well, of course you're not having fun. You're playing wrong! You need to be doing X, Y, and Z. And for Christ's sake, the book suggests X, Y, and Z, so you don't even have to stretch for creative solutions here."

At this point, you have two choices. You can say "Gee, this person's having fun. Maybe I should consider their advice. Maybe even give it a try, see what happens."

Or you can get stuck on your own ego and say "Muh playstyle!"

It seems like whatever genuine concern you have for helping the former is overcome by your desire to defend the latter.

Quote from: AsenRG;977579I'm pretty sure Gronan had mentioned that the stats of the gods were meant as an example of "too high to possibly defeat", but didn't take in account the munchkins;).
Of course, I'd expect that if you were to fight one god, you'd fight also a couple of cohorts. But what the hell are you even doing fighting by yourself at 10th level:D?

Post 212, to be precise.

And sure, you can do whatever you want, it's your game.  But in a game where the designer considered 15th level to be extremely high and 20th level to be nonpareil, don't be surprised if around level 35 she starts to come apart at the seams.

Quote from: Lunamancer;977670Speaking for myself, I can say I never once kicked in someone's front door while they were in the middle of the game to make sure they were playing right, hauling people who are playing wrong off to gamer jail, and placing a certified substitute players and GMs to replace them. People can play any way they want to. And I don't even have to state that for it to be the case. In fact, I could state there is one and only one true way to play, and that still doesn't stop people from playing what they want to. Pissing in someone else's Cheerio's is not the issue here, nor is it on any other gaming forum on the internet where nerds who will probably never meet or play together bicker about things without ever being able to effect each others' games.

All that said, let me agree with you 100%. Let fun be the standard. Now be consistent with it.

Turn your head to the title of the thread. Apparently some people aren't having fun. Some people are falling short of the standard. Some people are in fact playing wrong. Has nothing to do with whether or not they're playing by the book. They're failing to have fun.

So you post what you're doing. Someone who is having fun comes along and says, "Well, of course you're not having fun. You're playing wrong! You need to be doing X, Y, and Z. And for Christ's sake, the book suggests X, Y, and Z, so you don't even have to stretch for creative solutions here."

At this point, you have two choices. You can say "Gee, this person's having fun. Maybe I should consider their advice. Maybe even give it a try, see what happens."

Or you can get stuck on your own ego and say "Muh playstyle!"

It seems like whatever genuine concern you have for helping the former is overcome by your desire to defend the latter.

The point is that I AM consistent.  Just because the majority doesn't like level 35 being what it is, doesn't make the group who does like it wrong.  I'm against ANYONE who claims that it somehow does.  They found something that made it good for them.  Now, we just need to see what we can do to make level 35+ fun for us.  We should be looking at helping each other, not accusing each other, but we have a very vocal contingent here who haven't had anything constructive to contribute in years other than to stick their heads into any D&D thread and immediately make some judgement on everyone else.

Like claiming players are booger eatingly stupid for example.  That's not helpful, that's dismissive and pre-judgemental.

I don't understand how you can post here more than twice and still be offended by Gronan calling people "booger-eatingly stupid."

Quote from: fearsomepirate;977760I don't understand how you can post here more than twice and still be offended by Gronan calling people "booger-eatingly stupid."

He's offended by everything Gronan* posts really.

*or anyone else who actually played a TSR version of D&D.