Quote from: S'mon;973733I've only played RC to 19th - what are the issues for post-24 play? I'm guessing maybe casters have too many spells and fighters never miss?

In essence, both fighters and magic-users as well as opponents are so powerful that a lot of times a combat will come down to who wins initiative. Also, resurrection magic is so accessible that death essentially means nothing anymore; nothing but a TPK would be anything more than a slight annoyance.

Also, Demi-humans are very disadvantaged at that point. To the point that the people who were playing them (particulary the Halfling) were no longer feeling they were having fun at all.

Quote from: RPGPundit;975405In essence, both fighters and magic-users as well as opponents are so powerful that a lot of times a combat will come down to who wins initiative. Also, resurrection magic is so accessible that death essentially means nothing anymore; nothing but a TPK would be anything more than a slight annoyance.

Also, Demi-humans are very disadvantaged at that point. To the point that the people who were playing them (particulary the Halfling) were no longer feeling they were having fun at all.

Thanks, I did a few things to address these in my teen-level game - gave demi-humans additional benefits along with their Attack Ranks (eg Thief skills or Cleric spellcasting). I ran Raise Dead & Resurrection spells by the book but my son's MU-17/18 still died permanently when he failed a save vs Disintegrate. I agree offence tends to outstrip defence somewhat, MUs need to layer up spell protection to survive, and NPC MUs die easily at the hands of Fighter PCs if caught without Mirror Image up. Fighters & Clerics have to max out AC as best they can - I allowed long term magic item commissioning, which is good for taking hundreds of thousands of gp off the PCs...

Quote from: Spinachcat;973907Deities & Demigods was absolutely Monster Manual 2. We were in high school and I make no apologies. Killing gods with insano-level PCs was lots of fun.

My buddy who introduced me to the game showed me a couple of his old character sheets, one was an obscene 35th level paladin who defeated Ares. He always said "we were just kids doing silly stuff, no real campaign to speak of, just heroic quests with powerful characters lots of combat and lots of loot. It was was also a shit load of fun."

Crazy things happen if an entire party gangs up on a single god.

No doubt, when you hit level 35 and are even fighting gods, this is just a bunch of kids doing silly stuff. But what if you were to take that premise and actually play the game out by the rules?

A party of 6-8 (depending on exact stats and magic items) 9th level fighters, if they stand and fight to the death, can slay Cerberus, but only 1 or 2 at most will be left standing by the end of it. For 35th level Paladins? Maybe 3 would be an even match. A single Paladin, on the other hand, would be lucky to see round 2.

Against Ares? A 35th level Paladin with a +5 two-handed sword and gauntlets of ogre power deals 12-21 damage with each hit. He'll hit on any roll other than a '1', even against Ares. If he never stops fighting to lay on hands or cast spells, it'll take him about 11 rounds to single-handedly deplete all of Ares' hit points. In that time, Ares will deal a total of 500 points of damage, give or take a hundred or so depending if he uses his spear or his sword. In a straight-up fight, Ares is probably an even match to fight two 35th level Paladins simultaneously.

Ares and Cerberus together I have no doubt will totally wreck a 5-6 member party of 35th level adventurers.

So, yeah, if you really want to keep on playing to those levels and beyond, the game still has material to challenge you.

In the olden days, I'm not sure how well action economy was understood or thought about. You could conceive of six 9th-level fighters as a 300-hp monster that makes six/twelve attacks per round, each doing something like 1d10+5 hit, possibly more, its attacks going down as its hp drops.  Heironeous in the World of Greyhawk supplement has 217 hp and does four attacks, each hitting for 1d8+12. So as a solo monster, he won't last very long against a very high-level party. Now, if he's flanked by a quartet of Solars, now you have a real fight on your hands.

A similar "problem" is well-known in 5e. There really is no such thing as a good solo monster. A solid boss fight is always going to have some minions surrounding the big bad. And I think this is fine.

Quote from: Lunamancer;975989Crazy things happen if an entire party gangs up on a single god.

No doubt, when you hit level 35 and are even fighting gods, this is just a bunch of kids doing silly stuff. But what if you were to take that premise and actually play the game out by the rules?

A party of 6-8 (depending on exact stats and magic items) 9th level fighters, if they stand and fight to the death, can slay Cerberus, but only 1 or 2 at most will be left standing by the end of it. For 35th level Paladins? Maybe 3 would be an even match. A single Paladin, on the other hand, would be lucky to see round 2.

Against Ares? A 35th level Paladin with a +5 two-handed sword and gauntlets of ogre power deals 12-21 damage with each hit. He'll hit on any roll other than a '1', even against Ares. If he never stops fighting to lay on hands or cast spells, it'll take him about 11 rounds to single-handedly deplete all of Ares' hit points. In that time, Ares will deal a total of 500 points of damage, give or take a hundred or so depending if he uses his spear or his sword. In a straight-up fight, Ares is probably an even match to fight two 35th level Paladins simultaneously.

Ares and Cerberus together I have no doubt will totally wreck a 5-6 member party of 35th level adventurers.

So, yeah, if you really want to keep on playing to those levels and beyond, the game still has material to challenge you.[/QUOTE

Just the fact that they were 35th level floored me, as well as the fact gods acrually had stats!

Quote from: S'mon;975413Thanks, I did a few things to address these in my teen-level game - gave demi-humans additional benefits along with their Attack Ranks (eg Thief skills or Cleric spellcasting). I ran Raise Dead & Resurrection spells by the book but my son's MU-17/18 still died permanently when he failed a save vs Disintegrate. I agree offence tends to outstrip defence somewhat, MUs need to layer up spell protection to survive, and NPC MUs die easily at the hands of Fighter PCs if caught without Mirror Image up. Fighters & Clerics have to max out AC as best they can - I allowed long term magic item commissioning, which is good for taking hundreds of thousands of gp off the PCs...

Yes, there's definitely ways to moderate it. And really, the impressive thing about RC D&D is just how well it holds up for so long in the level escalation.

Quote from: RPGPundit;976577Yes, there's definitely ways to moderate it. And really, the impressive thing about RC D&D is just how well it holds up for so long in the level escalation.

We just switched conversationally from BECMI to RC. Is there a significant difference that you were thinking of? Other than the skill system (which came from the Gazetteers), is there anything in RC that changes high level play. I know RC is different than how we experienced BECMI, such as the fact that we didn't know about the weapon mastery system until we hit level 26 and got the Master's boxed set, etc. Is there anything else to think about?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;976823We just switched conversationally from BECMI to RC. Is there a significant difference that you were thinking of? Other than the skill system (which came from the Gazetteers), is there anything in RC that changes high level play. I know RC is different than how we experienced BECMI, such as the fact that we didn't know about the weapon mastery system until we hit level 26 and got the Master's boxed set, etc. Is there anything else to think about?

It's hard to remember. I hadn't run BECMI since the RC came out.

RC is a superior reference but will deluge a new GM who may end up allowing stuff like the Mystic that should be strictly optional.

Quote from: S'mon;977276RC is a superior reference but will deluge a new GM who may end up allowing stuff like the Mystic that should be strictly optional.

My biggest beef with RC, which I guess is also true of BECMI beyond BE, is the weapon mastery rules. It seems like there's some cool there. But it's a lot of data for the DM to juggle, and most of the "cool" is "cool in an over-the-top goofy way that won't fit most of my campaigns except that occasional one I do for shits and giggles." Problem being, the way the more powerful monsters scale up to ridiculous number of hit dice, it seems like the higher level content is built around the weapon mastery system being in use.

Quote from: Lunamancer;975989Crazy things happen if an entire party gangs up on a single god.

No doubt, when you hit level 35 and are even fighting gods, this is just a bunch of kids doing silly stuff. But what if you were to take that premise and actually play the game out by the rules?

A party of 6-8 (depending on exact stats and magic items) 9th level fighters, if they stand and fight to the death, can slay Cerberus, but only 1 or 2 at most will be left standing by the end of it. For 35th level Paladins? Maybe 3 would be an even match. A single Paladin, on the other hand, would be lucky to see round 2.

Against Ares? A 35th level Paladin with a +5 two-handed sword and gauntlets of ogre power deals 12-21 damage with each hit. He'll hit on any roll other than a '1', even against Ares. If he never stops fighting to lay on hands or cast spells, it'll take him about 11 rounds to single-handedly deplete all of Ares' hit points. In that time, Ares will deal a total of 500 points of damage, give or take a hundred or so depending if he uses his spear or his sword. In a straight-up fight, Ares is probably an even match to fight two 35th level Paladins simultaneously.

Ares and Cerberus together I have no doubt will totally wreck a 5-6 member party of 35th level adventurers.

So, yeah, if you really want to keep on playing to those levels and beyond, the game still has material to challenge you.

Why do the 35th-level murderhoboes get to gang-bang a god, and expect the god not to have any allies or minions or to appear for them and participate in a deathmatch?

Don't the spells also tend to become more important than the hitpoints at high levels?

Quote from: Skarg;977313Why do the 35th-level murderhoboes get to gang-bang a god, and expect the god not to have any allies or minions or to appear for them and participate in a deathmatch?

They don't. My point is, the gods are quite formidable. If you were to take seriously the prospect of using Deities & Demigods as a monster manual, you'll be able to challenge PCs for a long, long, long time.

QuoteDon't the spells also tend to become more important than the hitpoints at high levels?

For the gods, yes. And there is a repertoire of general deital powers, possessed by virtually all gods, which are not specified in the god's stat block.

For players, not so much. Too much in the way of immunity and resistance to magic.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;976014In the olden days, I'm not sure how well action economy was understood or thought about. You could conceive of six 9th-level fighters as a 300-hp monster that makes six/twelve attacks per round, each doing something like 1d10+5 hit, possibly more, its attacks going down as its hp drops.

I'd guess that it was well-understood at least by the designers. Because the thing you're talking about is no different from a group of 6 soldiers in a wargame;).

QuoteA similar "problem" is well-known in 5e. There really is no such thing as a good solo monster. A solid boss fight is always going to have some minions surrounding the big bad. And I think this is fine.

What, you mean the hydra doesn't get bonus actions:D?

Quote from: Skarg;977313Why do the 35th-level murderhoboes get to gang-bang a god, and expect the god not to have any allies or minions or to appear for them and participate in a deathmatch?

Because most people are booger-eating morons who are doing well to shit unassisted, which means also that they're dreadful tacticians.