Quote from: Justin Alexander;970880Cite, please.

(Or is this going to be another case you thinking that "hyperbole" and "completely inaccurate" are synonymous?)

Do you mean did Lovecraft write somewhere 'deep ones are black people.' No he didn't but his fear and obsession with miscegnation is clear in his personal letters and the reflection of that in the Shadow over Innsmouth is there for anyone to see.

"The whole U.S. negro question is very simple. (1) Certainly the negro is vastly the biological inferior of the Caucasian. (2) Therefore if racial amalgamation were to occur, the net level of American civilisation would perceptibly fall, as in such mongrel nations as Mexico–& several South American near-republics. (3) Amalgamation would undoubtedly take place if prejudice were eradicated, beginning with the lowest grades of Jews & Italians & eventually working upward until the whole country would be poisoned, & its culture & progress stunted. (4) Therefore the much-abused “colour line” is a self-protective measure of the white American people to keep the blood of their descendants pure, & the institutions & greatness of their country unimpaired. The colour line must be maintained in spite of the ranting & preaching of fanatical & ill-informed philanthropists. ––from a letter written January 18, 1919"

The funny thing is that The Shadow over Innsmouth ends on a ambigiously ecstatic note. Lovecraft's writing is nothing if not a fascinating psychosexual stew.

"The tense extremes of horror are lessening, and I feel queerly drawn toward the unknown sea-deeps instead of fearing them. I hear and do strange things in sleep, and awake with a kind of exaltation instead of terror. I do not believe I need to wait for the full change as most have waited. If I did, my father would probably shut me up in a sanitarium as my poor little cousin is shut up. Stupendous and unheard-of splendours await me below, and I shall seek them soon. Iä-R’lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä! Iä! No, I shall not shoot myself—I cannot be made to shoot myself!
     I shall plan my cousin’s escape from that Canton madhouse, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y’ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever."

Once again I think WW/Onyx Path belongs to the tradition of games like Pendragon and Ars Magica. Games with a lot of substance and depth. A lot of prose as well and most of the pages getting dedicated to fleshing out there own society and factions. I recently compared Deus Vult to Dark Ages Inquisitor and the pattern became visible. DA:I is all about the factions and not really much about what they face compared to DV. I don't mind rpg's that have a lot of fluff. I don't mind games that have a lot of setting. WW/Onyx Path games have a lot of prose that quite simply isn't relevant for running a campaign and I think that is holding the games down.* If Hite succeeds at making VtM a much better game, I hope they let him do a revised edition of the nWoD core rulebook at some point in the future. Because I am still looking for some sort of modern times Deus Vult.

*Btw, most of the stuff I think is useful is often pretty basic. What do the pc's want? What do the npc's want and why? How will they respond to the pc's? If those things are listed I will skim it and find something of my liking. The simpler the better.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842I just think it is very irresponsible for a GM to introduce, or re-introduce a traumatizing experience for a person who may be unaware of exactly what is implied with a disclaimer that is being provided during a game, or at the gaming table.

See, if you'd just dropped it with this, I could respect it.  A GM does have a responsibility to let his group know "I am not allowing evil PCs because they're too disruptive to the party, no time travel or precognition powers, and we're -not-/-are- a safe space."  A good GM wants their players to have fun, and knowing what the players are and aren't comfortable with in pursuit of that fun is common courtesy.  

That said I don't think is about managing group expectations, but censoring stuff you personally don't like for others as part of you decompressing some genuinely sad shit you were witness to.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842True story.

And it's no different from "D&D drove my kid to commit suicide".  Abused girl wants out of a shitty relationship, meets a player (not to be confused with "person who plays TTRPS"), things end badly for her and less badly for the player, player experiences profound guilt (and fear), other person blames player for it all.

Show me where in the Dungeon Master's Guide this was all ordained.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842For all you ignorant cucs out there

Like that girl's abusive husband?

Hey, you set 'em up, I'll knock 'em down.  (put another way: calling randos who disagree with you "cuc" is a good way to shout "I don't want to discuss this topic, my mind is closed, the year is 2017" and leaves nothing but ridicule left.  Also... you were practically begging for that response.  Calling people cucs and then edgelords in the same sentence, after a story about a woman having a secret affair.  Come on....)

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842that are prancing about all happy in your wrapped up tiny, ignorant world, and spouting joy at transgressing and edgelording, and toeing the line, I have observed people doing exactly that. One ended up dead, and the other psychologically crippled, maybe for always. Good luck with that, and I don't. and won't approve.

"Before we start this game of Rifts, I need you all to sign these contracts saying you won't commit adultery with other players in this group.  Rifts can get very passionate at times, and the temptation can be strong, what with all the MDC tracking involved.  If you can't handle it, I recommend the safety of joining one of the less sexy hobbies out there.  Like a bowling league."
Baulderstone: "Actually...."
"Quiet you!"

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970800So violence in any given media is OK as long as you gloss over and sanitise the gory bits, and ensure there is no visceral impact on the audience?

Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

Quote from: Nexus;970820Not at all. No one is making you include in your games. That's different from saying no rpgs or games can ever use such material if they chose is taking things too far.

I do not want to censor developers. I would prefer that fantasy violence and grotesque fetishist violence be packaged separately.

Quote from: Simlasa;970827Again, why for rape and not for violence and torture in general?

The two factors that make sexual violence worse than other forms of violence is that other forms of violence may be justified in certain circumstances and allegations of rape are often not taken seriously. It's okay to steal food if you're poor and starving or kill someone in self-defense, but it's highly questionable to torture an enemy of the state and confessions extracted under torture are unreliable. A victim of mugging or torture does not need to convince people they were victimized, while a victim of rape will be ignored or blamed for it.

I certainly think that some kind of rating system should be applied to all forms of violence and torture. I do not like being surprised to find detailed violence and torture in a book not advertised as containing such material.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;970880Cite, please.

(Or is this going to be another case you thinking that "hyperbole" and "completely inaccurate" are synonymous?)

It was wrong of me to confuse the two. I find Paizo's simultaneous preoccupation with rape, monster girls and radical feminism to be more than a little bit creepy. I am sorry for claiming that their questionable writing direction equates to instituting a non-existent rape quota.

As for your latest question, is an essay on that topic.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

Ever looked into Tynes' "Power Kill"?  It's a tad dated in the sense there -are- now games that deemphasize violence, but still well worth considering.

Why -is- criminal behavior such a common driving force of RPGs?

Quote from: san dee jota;970895Why -is- criminal behavior such a common driving force of RPGs?

I wouldn't call criminal behavior a driving force in RPGs, but violence and crime are definitely part of the landscape. Violence in entertainment is exciting. I'm fine with games with mechanics that emphasize other types of confrontation or eschew violence in general, but when people start talking about 'why do so many games encourage violence' or get entertain ideas like eliminating violence from RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world, I think that is a misguided view.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;970864Being adults, it worked. Maybe more people should act like adults.

I know I do this too often, but who are these people who aren't? Who are these people not acting like adults, or more specifically, the people on this thread defending people not acting like adults? As far as I can tell, this tangent of this thread is revolving around BoxCrayonTales saying that he doesn't like the rapey vibe from Piazo's publications. Doesn't like. Not thinks they should be banned or boycotted. Doesn't like the direction of a product line.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891It was wrong of me to confuse the two. I find Paizo's simultaneous preoccupation with rape, monster girls and radical feminism to be more than a little bit creepy. I am sorry for claiming that their questionable writing direction equates to instituting a non-existent rape quota.

Okay, in the other direction, people aren't saying you are doing that, either.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

Yet more proof of Problem Exists in Mirror.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842True story.

I am deeply sorry for your friend and for the girl. What a tragedy.

But I don't see how the game itself contributed to this turn of events. They might have met anywhere, they just happened to meet via RPGs. But they could just as easily have met in a party, or a bar, or a sports game.

And just in case this is an issue: you are not to blame for any of this. Neither is the game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970896I wouldn't call criminal behavior a driving force in RPGs, but violence and crime are definitely part of the landscape. Violence in entertainment is exciting. I'm fine with games with mechanics that emphasize other types of confrontation or eschew violence in general, but when people start talking about 'why do so many games encourage violence' or get entertain ideas like eliminating violence from RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world, I think that is a misguided view.

I do not believe in eliminating violence. Violent media does not cause violence in real life. Consuming violent media does not desensitize you if you experience real violence. I would like to have the explicit option of gaining XP for solving problems at all, regardless of whether violence was involved.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970897Okay, in the other direction, people aren't saying you are doing that, either.

It is difficult to tell whether someone is offended and why when communicating through text.

Quote from: CRKrueger;970900Yet more proof of Problem Exists in Mirror.

How does that imply that I have psychological problems? Humanoids exist for the sole purpose of being slaughtered for XP and loot because that is how the game is constructed. Claiming the slaughter is justified because the targets are evil is used by people who cannot accept that it is fantasy.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;970896I wouldn't call criminal behavior a driving force in RPGs, but violence and crime are definitely part of the landscape. Violence in entertainment is exciting. I'm fine with games with mechanics that emphasize other types of confrontation or eschew violence in general, but when people start talking about 'why do so many games encourage violence' or get entertain ideas like eliminating violence from RPGs will eliminate violence in the real world, I think that is a misguided view.

Oh totally.  If you give a billion people no other media than a puppies and kittens coloring book, multiple people will claim it drove somebody to commit murder (even if the killer disagrees).  I don't believe you can blame media for what people do (blaming underlying mental disorders people already possess is a whole other ball of wax).

But I also feel that there's something to be said for TTRPGs serving as little more than an outlet for some people to explore socially reprehensible behaviors in a safe manner.  Perpetrating crime and violence aren't "part of the landscape" but an inevitability in (most) TTRPGs.  It doesn't mean the players are violent criminals any more than it means a crime author is really like the characters create, but obviously players -want- some sort of outlet or else they wouldn't play these types of games.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;970891Fantasy roleplaying is typically crime fantasy. You are breaking into people's homes to murder them and loot their possessions. Endless hobgoblin holocaust without pretense. Of course I would want to sanitize that.

I'm sure some people play in that 'shooting gallery' mode but it's not been in my experience. There's just about always a pretense for the violence, as well as consequences. Maybe it's because I generally prefer games with deadlier combat and where XP isn't linked to killing things (DCC being an exception). Most of the people I've played with frown on random murder for profit schemes and will act to stop a PC who seems to have purely criminal intent.
Heck, in our game this week my PC wanted to steal some horses (we needed to travel fast) but the others refused and we ended up walking instead.

QuoteI do not want to censor developers. I would prefer that fantasy violence and grotesque fetishist violence be packaged separately.

Separately how? There's barely any RPG material on the store shelves around here for someone to blindly stumble into. OBS has their adult content filter and most game material has descriptions and reviews to aid in decisions. Games that self-describe as 'horror' and 'crime' give a clue to their contents.
I've never run a game that's had active rape in it... the closest is knowing what the Broo or some other horror has done or might do. If I've bought something that had an element I was uncomfortable with I felt free to change it.

QuoteThe two factors that make sexual violence worse than other forms of violence is that other forms of violence may be justified in certain circumstances and allegations of rape are often not taken seriously.

I'm not buying it. Yeah, some forms of violence are sometimes justified and rape never is... but even justified violence is horrific, not a cause for celebration. Something most sane people hope to avoid. But in fiction (and games) I'm not seeing why one form of trouble should be shunned unless the author/GM/Group chooses to.
My sister was raped, one of my best friends was raped... but seeing rape in a movie/book/game has no connection for me to those realities. I have a friend who was hit and killed by a car... but I'll still run down bad guys in GTA.

Quote from: Simlasa;970945I'm sure some people play in that 'shooting gallery' mode but it's not been in my experience. There's just about always a pretense for the violence, as well as consequences. Maybe it's because I generally prefer games with deadlier combat and where XP isn't linked to killing things (DCC being an exception). Most of the people I've played with frown on random murder for profit schemes and will act to stop a PC who seems to have purely criminal intent.
Heck, in our game this week my PC wanted to steal some horses (we needed to travel fast) but the others refused and we ended up walking instead.

The only pretense I need is "Gaia hates civilization and births savage humanoids, born adult and holding weapons, to kill you." I don't want to massacre women and children because they're born evil, nor do I want to rescue women and children from an evil patriarchy by massacring the men.

Quote from: Simlasa;970945Separately how? There's barely any RPG material on the store shelves around here for someone to blindly stumble into. OBS has their adult content filter and most game material has descriptions and reviews to aid in decisions. Games that self-describe as 'horror' and 'crime' give a clue to their contents.
I've never run a game that's had active rape in it... the closest is knowing what the Broo or some other horror has done or might do. If I've bought something that had an element I was uncomfortable with I felt free to change it.

Paizo makes no attempt at providing content ratings. If I am reading through a Pathfinder Bestiary, then I will eventually come across monsters whose whole shtick is that they rape people. I keep a list of these monsters and my changes to them so that they do not revolve around rape.

Quote from: Simlasa;970945I'm not buying it. Yeah, some forms of violence are sometimes justified and rape never is... but even justified violence is horrific, not a cause for celebration. Something most sane people hope to avoid. But in fiction (and games) I'm not seeing why one form of trouble should be shunned unless the author/GM/Group chooses to.
My sister was raped, one of my best friends was raped... but seeing rape in a movie/book/game has no connection for me to those realities. I have a friend who was hit and killed by a car... but I'll still run down bad guys in GTA.

Paizo makes no attempt at providing content ratings. I prefer to keep my violence at PG-13 or below. No gore, no rape, no nothing. It does not entertain me.

Quote from: Vile Jester;970320Anything you think might mitigate that?

The simplest solution would be to give them a new compulsion instead, as lets face it, describing babies and refugees in terms of ability boosts isn't exactly sophisticated, compassionate, or respectful. I've even heard V20 already has a similar mechanic.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970842when a game is deliberately depicted morally reprehensible behavior, it is clearly sending a message that such behavior should be considered ok, and that it is ok that such behavior exists, otherwise, we wouldn't have to include it the game, right?

:rolleyes:

In that case, which #RPGs do you even play besides #GoldenSkyStories?

Quote from: Voros;970882The funny thing is that The Shadow over Innsmouth ends on a ambigiously ecstatic note. Lovecraft's writing is nothing if not a fascinating psychosexual stew.

"The tense extremes of horror are lessening, and I feel queerly drawn toward the unknown sea-deeps instead of fearing them. I hear and do strange things in sleep, and awake with a kind of exaltation instead of terror. I do not believe I need to wait for the full change as most have waited. If I did, my father would probably shut me up in a sanitarium as my poor little cousin is shut up. Stupendous and unheard-of splendours await me below, and I shall seek them soon. Iä-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä! Iä! No, I shall not shoot myself—I cannot be made to shoot myself!

I shall plan my cousin's escape from that Canton madhouse, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y'ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever."

Well that doesn't sound so bad. Shit, sign me up for #FishCity. Now I want to write a #Fanfic where Ariel is a reverse #DeepOne.

#UnderTheSea

Quote from: Voros;970882The funny thing is that The Shadow over Innsmouth ends on a ambigiously ecstatic note. Lovecraft's writing is nothing if not a fascinating psychosexual stew.

"The tense extremes of horror are lessening, and I feel queerly drawn toward the unknown sea-deeps instead of fearing them. I hear and do strange things in sleep, and awake with a kind of exaltation instead of terror. I do not believe I need to wait for the full change as most have waited. If I did, my father would probably shut me up in a sanitarium as my poor little cousin is shut up. Stupendous and unheard-of splendours await me below, and I shall seek them soon. Iä-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä! Iä! No, I shall not shoot myself—I cannot be made to shoot myself!
     I shall plan my cousin's escape from that Canton madhouse, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y'ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever."

"The Whisperer in Darkness" is another ambiguous one. Maybe the Mi-go really are selling a transhuman utopia. The shelved, dusty braincases suggest maybe they aren't, but perhaps they are just waiting to get back to Yuggoth to get them properly plugged in.

It's the ambiguity in both these stories that lend them a lot of power.