Quote from: GameDaddy;970504Eh? It's not the unsocial or unsavory aspects that make a horror game great, but the unknown, the suspense or the delayed anticipation, and the elements of surprise combined... In some very rare cases the unsocial or unsavory aspects, combined with the remainder mentioned here can salvage an otherwise bad story or game experience, however I have found that to be the extreme exception and not the norm for any type of horror, be it games, written stories, or movies.

Hacks who rely on making their games interesting by adding unsocial or unsavory aspects are a mentally crippled lot that offer the players few opportunities for any type of creative control over their experience. They instead, are simply misery tourism guides intent on ensuring the dues ex machina of their failed storylines and plots are executed without player agency being able to effect the story. Now this is simply not roleplaying if the players can't change what they do, or if the outcome of their actions in a scenario, or adventure can't be changed or otherwise altered to create a positive situation, or outcome. If the only situation is that we have to have unsocial or unsavory aspects for our horror game, then it is not a horror game, but a different railroad, an express freight train to completely different hell, one, where true horror (and fear) don't exist, and is replaced by a numbing boredom instead that is insensitivity, and indifference.

There are many, many B-grade horror movies, but only a very few horror masterpieces, games, or movies, or books with the power to scare the living S&$^ out of you. These would be games, or books, ...or movies that make you wake up sweating, or screaming in terror, or that make you too afraid to turn out all the lights, or that are so scary that you are completely unwilling to sit in the unquiet dark, alone, by yourself. Throwing in a few unsocial or unsavory aspects won't get you these experiences, although they may sicken, or revolt your average eleven year old.

So, who is your game really for? is it for mature adults looking for quite possibly a thrilling and simultaneously terrifying experience, or is your game just there, so you can gross out eleven year olds? inquiring minds are keen to know. My horror games are for the adults.

Also, if anyone can save White Wolf just on the quality of his writing alone, I'd once again have to endorse Kenneth Hite over pretty much anyone, including Mark Rein-Hagan.

For anyone here unfamiliar with his true qualities of Kenneth Hite as a game designer, writer, foodie, and movie critic, feel free to google Prince of Cairo and Livejournal, and educate yourself.

This is just coming across as seriously aloof and pretentious to me. Horror 'classics' like The Exorcist have a child masterbating on a crucifix while screaming profanities at a priest, and there has been plenty worse imagery in literature and film. RPGs are no different. The notion of 'horror' as genre is that it is transgressional. If you are uncomfortable with the feelings it generates, then get off the rollercoaster, but don't judge and criticise what you don't understand.

Quote from: AsenRG;970383I've generally found that when someone starts telling me what's the whole purpose and the entire goal of something...that person needs to leathe rn a) more about the subject and b) humility (hint: the purpose might differ for other people).
The general observation holds true in this case, alas:).

...I see, so you are adding some new goals to RPGs then, that weren't originally part of the rules for games in general or horror in particular. Just what are you hoping to acheive in doing this?

Quote from: AsenRG;970383Hint: one of those things I underlined isn't like the others:D! (I also put it in bold in case you're wondering).
And referring to all of them as "negative behaviours", "toxins", "such sordid and sad roleplaying content", "poisons" and "trash" really, really doesn't help me believe your statement that you're "not triggered". You sure seem triggered to me:p!
Or, if you're not triggered...why do you hate sex so much;)?  

Eh? ...WTF are you on about? What kind of drugs, prescriptions, or illegal cocktails would possibly make you believe that, based on what I wrote here earlier?  For the record though, I will state I have a very extreme prejudice against depictions of sex and violence in roleplaying games, even for horror RPG. Reason is, ...and you should learn this, ...just so you don't accidentally execute anyone vulnerable, by your arrogant display of extreme stupidity here today, and becuase you don't understand the power of your words yet, is there are alot of people who can be triggered into depression, or even a suicidal depression by unexpected combinations of sex and violence. So when you are saying it's ok to depict these in your RPG because it's just a game, you are saying it's ok to assault these people, becuase ...duh  your game is a horror game, and they should expect to be mentally raped.

Finally, my personal sex life is none of your business.

Mark Rein-Hagen may have loved sociology, but he was nowhere near as pretentious as Justin Achilli. That man did more than anyone else to ruin WoD with his "One True Way" agenda of cramming personal horror down everyone's throats, whereas Rein-Hagen simply offered personal horror as one of several equally valid themes in VTM 1e. (Yes, I know the back cover of VTM 1e says "A Storytelling Game of Personal Horror" but that's largely window dressing compared to what's actually in the book).

Achilli is a talentless hack, a pretentious Goth, and both White Wolf and Onyx Path are still following his style even after years of failure. It was his pretentious angsty Goth shit that ultimately sabotaged Requiem, which in a lot of ways, was a much needed improvement after the excesses of Masquerade Revised (which also crashed and burned due to his attitude combined with a horrid metaplot). The insistence of thematic purity in a game that's otherwise designed to be a toolbox helped sabotage Requiem (that and all the pissed off Masquerade fans who refused to change). Things like the emotional deadness and Predator's Taint stand out in particular, as they were so counter-productive, even Onyx Path canned those things in the second edition of Requiem (but otherwise, Requiem 2e is a horrible game compared to 1e, what with all the unnecessary mechanical and setting changes).

The derision and condemnation of anyone who strayed from the party line and didn't play angsty and pretentious edgelord Gothic personal horror probably hurt sales and hurt WoD's reputation as a whole, and a lot of that can be attributed to Justin Achilli, especially in Revised Masquerade and early Requiem.

Mark Rein-Hagen may have had his quirks and maybe a few Goth or SJW tendencies, but Justin Achilli is by far the worse of the two.

I say fuck Justin Achilli and his pretentious Gothic personal horror bullshit nonsense! I say we don our trenchcoats, grab our katanas, kick personal horror to the curb, and give the finger to the Goth subculture!

Anime rules, Marvel and DC suck! Fuck the Goth subculture and fuck personal horror!

Quote from: GameDaddy;970508...I see, so you are adding some new goals to RPGs then, that weren't originally part of the rules for games in general or horror in particular. Just what are you hoping to acheive in doing this?
Eh? ...WTF are you on about? What kind of drugs, prescriptions, or illegal cocktails would possibly make you believe that, based on what I wrote here earlier?  For the record though, I will state I have a very extreme prejudice against depictions of sex and violence in roleplaying games, even for horror RPG. Reason is, ...and you should learn this, ...just so you don't accidentally execute anyone vulnerable, by your arrogant display of extreme stupidity here today, and becuase you don't understand the power of your words yet, is there are alot of people who can be triggered into depression, or even a suicidal depression by unexpected combinations of sex and violence. So when you are saying it's ok to depict these in your RPG because it's just a game, you are saying it's ok to assault these people, becuase ...duh  your game is a horror game, and they should expect to be mentally raped.

Finally, my personal sex life is none of your business.

I think what we are all saying is that we can differentiate between what is real and what is fictional, and that creative fiction doesn't have arbitrary restrictions based upon the sensibilities of prudes.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970509Mark Rein-Hagen may have loved sociology, but he was nowhere near as pretentious as Justin Achilli. That man did more than anyone else to ruin WoD with his "One True Way" agenda of cramming personal horror down everyone's throats, whereas Rein-Hagen simply offered personal horror as one of several equally valid themes in VTM 1e. (Yes, I know the back cover of VTM 1e says "A Storytelling Game of Personal Horror" but that's largely window dressing compared to what's actually in the book).

Achilli is a talentless hack, a pretentious Goth, and both White Wolf and Onyx Path are still following his style even after years of failure. It was his pretentious angsty Goth shit that ultimately sabotaged Requiem, which in a lot of ways, was a much needed improvement after the excesses of Masquerade Revised (which also crashed and burned due to his attitude combined with a horrid metaplot). The insistence of thematic purity in a game that's otherwise designed to be a toolbox helped sabotage Requiem (that and all the pissed off Masquerade fans who refused to change). Things like the emotional deadness and Predator's Taint stand out in particular, as they were so counter-productive, even Onyx Path canned those things in the second edition of Requiem (but otherwise, Requiem 2e is a horrible game compared to 1e, what with all the unnecessary mechanical and setting changes).

The derision and condemnation of anyone who strayed from the party line and didn't play angsty and pretentious edgelord Gothic personal horror probably hurt sales and hurt WoD's reputation as a whole, and a lot of that can be attributed to Justin Achilli, especially in Revised Masquerade and early Requiem.

Mark Rein-Hagen may have had his quirks and maybe a few Goth or SJW tendencies, but Justin Achilli is by far the worse of the two.

I say fuck Justin Achilli and his pretentious Gothic personal horror bullshit nonsense! I say we don our trenchcoats, grab our katanas, kick personal horror to the curb, and give the finger to the Goth subculture!

Anime rules, Marvel and DC suck! Fuck the Goth subculture and fuck personal horror!

Get over you hatred of Achilli, Doc Sammy!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970512Get over you hatred of Achilli, Doc Sammy!

No, I will not. Justin Achilli is a talentless hack who insistence on his vision of thematic purity ultimately ruined a once-awesome franchise.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970504Eh? It's not the unsocial or unsavory aspects that make a horror game great, but the unknown, the suspense or the delayed anticipation, and the elements of surprise combined...

I'd argue that those are all elements of a thriller. Elements of a thriller can all be used to great effect in a horror story, but you need something transgressive to go from thriller to horror.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970512Get over you hatred of Achilli, Doc Sammy!

It's bad enough watching Pundit angrily shadowboxing with JMal, a guy who left the RPG world five years ago. Achilli went off to work on videogames over a decade ago. It's tilting at a place where a windmill once was.

Until the arrival of the seminal Night of the Living Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre horror films use to be much less overtly trangressive, bloody and violent. I admire both approachs, The Haunted is a masterpiece but so is Audition, and both are legit in horror games.

In the CoC classic Masks of Nyarlathotep the investigators can end up witnessing horrors raping cult victims, I believe that is during the English section, so distasteful content has a long tradition in horror gaming let alone horror films.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970534It's bad enough watching Pundit angrily shadowboxing with JMal, a guy who left the RPG world five years ago. Achilli went off to work on videogames over a decade ago. It's tilting at a place where a windmill once was.

Actually, Achilli has done work for OPP. So he's still in the mix.

When I heard V:tR got ruined too. That damned near made me cry.

I had held a generally positive view of that game from the first few books I bought for it. To hear that they had shit away its potential is down right depressing.

Quote from: Voros;970537Until the arrival of the seminal Night of the Living Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre horror films use to be much less overtly trangressive, bloody and violent. I admire both approachs, The Haunted is a masterpiece but so is Audition, and both are legit in horror games.

In the CoC classic Masks of Nyarlathotep the investigators can end up witnessing horrors raping cult victims, I believe that is during the English section, so distasteful content has a long tradition in horror gaming let alone horror films.

It isn't horror that original White Wolf and OPP presented. It's splatterpunk and shock.

The people at original White Wolf and OPP wouldn't know horror if it came up and french kissed them.

Horror is about evoking fear. With a thick spooky atmosphere. And a sense of creeping dread. It's about emotion, instinct. Reducing an otherwise normal sane human being to a creature of pure terrified instinct.

Quote from: Voros;970537Until the arrival of the seminal Night of the Living Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre horror films use to be much less overtly trangressive, bloody and violent. I admire both approachs, The Haunted is a masterpiece but so is Audition, and both are legit in horror games.

I'm using transgressive to refer not just to excess violence, but also to situations where the natural rules are violated in an upsetting way. I'd include The Haunting for the second reason and Audition for the first.

QuoteIn the CoC classic Masks of Nyarlathotep the investigators can end up witnessing horrors raping cult victims, I believe that is during the English section, so distasteful content has a long tradition in horror gaming let alone horror films.

That is indeed in the London chapter. I've played that once and run it three times over the years. I could probably run a passable version from memory. As an aside, nobody ever goes to Australia. Nobody ever even talks about it. They made the right call in cutting that chapter from the first edition.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970539Actually, Achilli has done work for OPP. So he's still in the mix.

I stand corrected. I guess Doc Sammy can continue his one man war.

Quote from: VengerSatanis;970171Just so long as it doesn't devolve into Innocent Blood.  [Shudder]

VS

But Innocent Blood was pretty good

Honestly I hate vampires and metaphors they represent. I'm all in on most any version of Mage or sorcerers, witches, wizards and related and the metaphors they represent that I fully support VM5's attempt to portray vampires as the horrible predators and parasites that they are.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970509Mark Rein-Hagen may have loved sociology, but he was nowhere near as pretentious as Justin Achilli. That man did more than anyone else to ruin WoD with his "One True Way" agenda of cramming personal horror down everyone's throats, whereas Rein-Hagen simply offered personal horror as one of several equally valid themes in VTM 1e.

I don't think that's accurate.  

Up until Achilli, the game had two themes: personal horror, and the Jyhad (elders vs. anarchs.) Both had been dying for a while, but Achilli finalized it by focusing the game on the Grand Sabbat War. The other thing he did was kill the Ravnos with the power of metaplot (thankfully.) But as a result, the Technocracy became the big bad ass faction of the WOD, proving that Mage was always the bullshit we suspected it was (throwback losers fighting against penicillin and air conditioning.)

Quote from: Baulderstone;970555As an aside, nobody ever goes to Australia. Nobody ever even talks about it. They made the right call in cutting that chapter from the first edition.

I don't follow?

Quote from: Aglondir;970567I don't think that's accurate.  

Up until Achilli, the game had two themes: personal horror, and the Jyhad (elders vs. anarchs.) Both had been dying for a while, but Achilli finalized it by focusing the game on the Grand Sabbat War. The other thing he did was kill the Ravnos with the power of metaplot (thankfully.) But as a result, the Technocracy became the big bad ass faction of the WOD, proving that Mage was always the bullshit we suspected it was (throwback losers fighting against penicillin and air conditioning.)

Maybe to any retarded fucker. It was all about Freedom vs. Control full stop, no $200 dollars and no pass go. The Technocracy was about the worst kind of evil imaginable, they basically destroyed possibility and allowed the Nephandi to win the whole thing without a fight.