Quote from: Christopher Brady;970172I feel ya, Exploited.  I like Dungeons that 'make sense', as much as they do in the Conan short stories.  I like ruined, evil cultist filled or degenerate temples, sewers where necromancy happens because it used to be a giant mass grave where they city's nobility/rich tossed plague victims and corpses generations past, a city built upon another city, which is built on an older city, so ruined tunnels and sewers and ancient buildings abound underground, stuff like that.

This is it mate! If it makes 'sense', I feel the game is so much more immersive. Conan is an excellent example. I like going through a lair and rooting out the evil (or more evil than myself I should say). Defitely, Necromancy is brilliant and it makes perfect sense given youre situated in an ancient Necropolis (or some such place where there are many bodies).

I GM'd a Hollow Earth Expedition game recently where there was a strange ruined city which the players stumbled across. Pretty much deserted but the goal is for the players to kill an evil cultist who is actually stalking them. Which makes it pretty tense, given the horrible place it was set in, and the no ending of hiding places. And becase it's deserted the players feel very helpless. It just added to the sense od dread as opposed to a constant slew of strange creatures.

But during the course of the game, the players get to see the wonders of a remnant cizilization that no human has ever seen. So the story unfolds 'naturally' as it goes along. There were some situational hazards because of the ancient nature of the crumbling architecture. Then the end there's a climax with the cultists and a few of his undead minions. I liked the adventure becase it felt logical.

I think it was one of the original adventures written for Hollow Earth (I changed it up a bit but I liked the overall scope of it).

I like a good dungeon crawl if the dungeon actually makes sense. This, for me, goes back at least as far as Supplement Two and the Temple of the Frog. Before that even to Theseus in the Labyrinth of Crete.

A random assortment of monsters, treasures and traps strewn about various rooms and passages with no rhyme or reason dosen't interest me these days.

Quote from: Lunamancer;970145I don't think the good ones are necessarily those that "make sense" or have some "clear purpose." This sort of preference is immediately suspect because how, as a player, would you ever know that the dungeon doesn't have a purpose? How do you know you just haven't figured it out yet?

I was speaking as the GM, not as a player. As a GM I want the dungeons I run to make sense and have a purpose. "A wizard did it" just doesn't cover it for me.

Quote from: Madprofessor;970167One things that dungeons do, in meta-game terms, is limit player choices, and provide a ready made flow-chart type of environment for GMs.  They provide structure to the wide-open nature of RPGs.  It makes the world small - even in big dungeons.  Sure a GM can put whatever in the dungeon, but it is still a place of limited scope.  Its not like having the option to fill a world.  Players can still play open-ended and make what choices they want, but the number of reasonable choices is quite a bit smaller than in a wide open sandbox world.  In a dungeon, you can get the feel of open ended sandbox play in an easily manageable environment.  I think that is a big reason why dungeon crawls are so popular.

Which is also why dungeons and dungeon crawls make it much easier for DMs (now GMs) to pick up a pencil and graph paper and start running something.

Quote from: Larsdangly;970169Your game system is an important piece to this puzzle. Someone above commented that they drifted away from dungeon crawls after switching to Runequest. RQ doesn't have a lot of things that make set-piece dungeon crawl games fun. Resource management is far less important in RQ than D&D. Combat is more likely to murder you off by dumb luck in RQ, which means you can't get in many scraps. D&D has an unusually gradual, sustained advancement in character power, which is well suited to games that focus on repeatedly overcoming challenges and/or digging deeper and deeper into an environment that gets more and more dangerous as you go. It lacks the 'role' elements of D&D classes. All in all RQ is a different sort of game that is better for other sorts of campaigns

I'm not sure what you mean by a "set-piece dungeon crawl." The Runequest dungeons (and caves and tombs) that I've seen and created were as much a set piece as any D&D dungeon I ever created (i.e. you had maps with rooms that contained traps, monsters, loot, and furnishings. You are correct that static hit points don't lend themselves to much of a resource management game, but Magic Points are spell points and especially at higher levels Magic Points are a resource analogous to D&D hit points. And of course resource management of arrows, torches, lanterns, magic light, food, and water work equally well in Runequest as in old style D&D.

Quote from: Madprofessor;970167One things that dungeons do, in meta-game terms, is limit player choices, and provide a ready-made flow-chart type of environment for GMs.  They provide structure to the wide-open nature of RPGs.  It makes the world small - even in big dungeons.  Sure a GM can put whatever in the dungeon, but it is still a place of limited scope.  Its not like having the option to fill a world.  Players can still play open-ended and make what choices they want, but the number of reasonable choices is quite a bit smaller than in a wide open sandbox world.  In a dungeon, you can get the feel of open ended sandbox play in an easily manageable environment.  I think that is a big reason why dungeon crawls are so popular.

That they do in fairness... They can defintely give you an overview of the game in one small sliver of the world's interior so to speak. I can also appreciate that it's a lot less daunting for most to build a dungeon as opposed to an open sandbox adventure/campaign where the players have a free reign. There's also a never ending supply of tried and tested supplements to get you going if you're a new GM (or if you're short on time). They defintely have a place within the context of RPGin'.

I do like exploring derelict spaceships in the context of horror gaming I have to admit. But these are pretty much logical as they are just 'crafts'. Although, you can inject the weird, especially if you're paying something like 'The Void' or Lovecraftian. Once it's got horror in it I'm all over it.

Quote from: Azraele;970163I had to be taught how to appreciate dungeoncrawls.

The first sparks of interest were kindled by this short, sweet article (which now has numerous broken links, but is a good read none the less)

I was a big fan of Zork back in the day; that article got me thinking about the atmosphere of that great game, and how I could recreate it at my table. I still feel like that is the best argument for "dungeon as atmosphere" I've ever read.

When it came to designing dungeons which were interesting to explore, this much, much longer but extremely interesting series of articles gave me lots of grist for reading and many things to ponder about dungeoncrawling.

Finally, as I was still struggling to develop my own dungeons consistently, I stumbled on this brief but very inspiring article which introduced me to the concept of "a plot" (current events) and "b plot" (ancient origin) with dungeons. This greatly helped me because it gave me a quick, reliable way to make a dungeon a living part of the milieu of my games.

Taken together, those above resources turned dungeons from "those places that are like a video game" to "the most atmospheric, characterful and strategically interesting architecture in my games". As you can probably collect, I was very pleased with this transformation.

Ta', I'll check those out mate.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;970172I feel ya, Exploited.  I like Dungeons that 'make sense', as much as they do in the Conan short stories.  I like ruined, evil cultist filled or degenerate temples, sewers where necromancy happens because it used to be a giant mass grave where they city's nobility/rich tossed plague victims and corpses generations past, a city built upon another city, which is built on an older city, so ruined tunnels and sewers and ancient buildings abound underground, stuff like that.

same here.

Got burned out on this 15 years ago. Mostly by playing too much Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale coop on the pc, I think. The best rpg sessions are where everyone uses a wide variety of skills, like survival, stealth, lockpicking, fast-talking, alchemy, arcane knowledge, streetwise etc. to solve the problems they face. Be creative. It's fun that way. You can use all of those things, so why shouldn't you use them all? Strangely enough I love dungeoncrawls in boardgames. Must be the tiles and miniatures that make it appealing.

Quote from: The Exploited.;970196I GM'd a Hollow Earth Expedition game recently where there was a strange ruined city which the players stumbled across. Pretty much deserted but the goal is for the players to kill an evil cultist who is actually stalking them. Which makes it pretty tense, given the horrible place it was set in, and the no ending of hiding places. And becase it's deserted the players feel very helpless. It just added to the sense od dread as opposed to a constant slew of strange creatures.

But during the course of the game, the players get to see the wonders of a remnant cizilization that no human has ever seen. So the story unfolds 'naturally' as it goes along. There were some situational hazards because of the ancient nature of the crumbling architecture. Then the end there's a climax with the cultists and a few of his undead minions. I liked the adventure becase it felt logical.

I think it was one of the original adventures written for Hollow Earth (I changed it up a bit but I liked the overall scope of it).

That sounds like a lot of fun. I also prefer a dungeon to "make sense."

Quote from: The Exploited.;970160The Isle of Dread was a breath of fresh air

I don't know that one (I think). The name sounds familiar, though.

Quote from: Dumarest;970223That sounds like a lot of fun. I also prefer a dungeon to "make sense."

Yeah mate, it was a decent little adventure. I hope I captured the sense of mystery with a bit of horror...  

I find the whole backdrop of the Hollow Eath very evocative.

Quote from: Dumarest;970224I don't know that one (I think). The name sounds familiar, though.

It's an oldie... I think it came with the D&D expert set back in the day. To be honest, I'm probably looking back at it with rose-tinted glasses. But it was very different than the usual scenarios at the time. It's loosely based on King Kong with a dollop of piracy, jungles, and lost tribes. If I was GMing it now I'd make sure each encounter would link better to the overall story. It was a little bit random in nature but it's years since I've read it to be honest.

Quote from: Azraele;970163I had to be taught how to appreciate dungeoncrawls.

The first sparks of interest were kindled by this short, sweet article (which now has numerous broken links, but is a good read none the less)

I was a big fan of Zork back in the day; that article got me thinking about the atmosphere of that great game, and how I could recreate it at my table. I still feel like that is the best argument for "dungeon as atmosphere" I've ever read.

When it came to designing dungeons which were interesting to explore, this much, much longer but extremely interesting series of articles gave me lots of grist for reading and many things to ponder about dungeoncrawling.

Finally, as I was still struggling to develop my own dungeons consistently, I stumbled on this brief but very inspiring article which introduced me to the concept of "a plot" (current events) and "b plot" (ancient origin) with dungeons. This greatly helped me because it gave me a quick, reliable way to make a dungeon a living part of the milieu of my games.

Taken together, those above resources turned dungeons from "those places that are like a video game" to "the most atmospheric, characterful and strategically interesting architecture in my games". As you can probably collect, I was very pleased with this transformation.

After reading those articles I am inspired to make a dungeon whose design and layout is based on my house.

I think our first half dozen or so adventures, I as GM, were crawls back in the 70s. After that we just naturally sort of expanded from there. There have been countless interior environments over the years as part of the overall story, some very 'dungeony' but I dont think Ive run something  like those first crawls sense.

If you don't like dungeon crawls, don't play them.

Okay, we're done here.  Somebody fetch me a beer.

Quote from: The Exploited.;970137Sure, what do you want to know?

In a nutshell... It's a lowish fantasy game. Set after a very bad war where the humans prevailed against some very nasty dark lords. However, it left their homeland scorched and devoid of life. So, they had to move off seeking newer pastures so to speak. This brought them into conflict with, not only barbarian tribes, but with Elves. The game has Dwarves, Elves Ogres, and Trolls. But they are all different to what what you'd normally associate with a traditional fantasy setting. It's humancentric but with a wide scope for playing those races (if you want to).

The mythos is very much Scandinavian in origin (as you'd expect as the creators are Swedish). Anyway, there's a huge forest called Davokar and it's the size of a country. There's a loose pact between the Elves and humans. The Elves were the protectors of the forest (or Nazis I should say). Symbaroum refers to an ancient lost civilization that has long since died. But humans (and others) constantly seek out its fortunes in Davokar (artifacts, ancient knowlege, etc). There's a town called 'Thistlehold' (and that's a great place for intrugue itself) where the adventures can stay before they go into the rather unsafe forest.

I don't want to give any spoilers away. Elves are really freaking nasty! Especially, the older ones. Ogres, goblins and Changelings all have an interesting intertwined history. Although, the ones that  mix with humans tend to be ghettoized or shunned.

Be careful using magic too! Less you are corrupted and turned into an abomination. Corruption is deadly in this game... Now only with magic but with other stuff as well (artifacts, locations).

Systems it is pretty simple. It uses a d20 but it's a fairly easy plus and minus affair. It's pretty quick to run.

However it's quite deadly, to be honest... I had to fudge a couple of roles otherwise the adventure would have been over rather quickly. Definitely one of my favorite games though I love the vibe.

And the artwork is the best I have seen for a long time. Haunting and evocative.