I did. I modified Black Hack to create a samurai rule set. It's fast. And by fast I mean that my wife and her friend, both of whom had never played an RPG before, got PCs made up in about 10 minutes. They had a blast. I turned it into Kaigaku and am having fun writing it up.

Quote from: tanaka84;966276I don't see it as a ban, rather a design choice; there are literally hundreds of OSR products out there, this is just one aimed at GMs who like player-facing mechanics.

But it's not just a one-off option; it's a trend that was started by a group of assholes who despise GMs and want them as powerless as possible.  It also strikes me as the opposite of OSR sensibilities.

Quote from: DiscoSoup;966340I did. I modified Black Hack to create a samurai rule set. It's fast. And by fast I mean that my wife and her friend, both of whom had never played an RPG before, got PCs made up in about 10 minutes. They had a blast. I turned it into Kaigaku and am having fun writing it up.

Kaigaku is the next book in my pile of reviews.  I haven't even cracked it open yet, but I'll be interested to see if it can win me over.

Quote from: RPGPundit;966617But it's not just a one-off option; it's a trend that was started by a group of assholes who despise GMs and want them as powerless as possible.  It also strikes me as the opposite of OSR sensibilities.

What was the first game to have players roll all the dice?

Quote from: RPGPundit;966617But it's not just a one-off option; it's a trend that was started by a group of assholes who despise GMs and want them as powerless as possible.  It also strikes me as the opposite of OSR sensibilities.

That might be true, in a fashion, but there is nothing in the rules to suggest that the rest of that crowds argument is being accepted. Rather it feels like the interesting mechanical choice has been mined and used in an OSR game. I'm not certain how it would work in actual play, but it could leave the DM free to focus on outcomes and description.

Ultimately it's a gaming fad, and having an OSR version of it hurts no one. Having now read it, I'm unlikely to use it (I think too many rules got simplified to make the player facing rules work). But it doesn't plant a flag in that so called camp just by existing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;966617But it's not just a one-off option; it's a trend that was started by a group of assholes who despise GMs and want them as powerless as possible.  It also strikes me as the opposite of OSR sensibilities.

How is it disempowering you if you can't roll dice. It's not like you can control the result. Unless you're balking at the fact you can't roll and fudge behind a screen? Really, rolling a die is the least powerful thing a GM does.

Quote from: RPGPundit;966618Kaigaku is the next book in my pile of reviews.  I haven't even cracked it open yet, but I'll be interested to see if it can win me over.

Gulp. I will say that Kaigaku has lots for the GM to roll. There's an encounter generator for various environments (court, streets, battlefield and open wilderness) and you generally roll every 15 minutes of real time.

Quote from: cranebump;966745How is it disempowering you if you can't roll dice. It's not like you can control the result. Unless you're balking at the fact you can't roll and fudge behind a screen? Really, rolling a die is the least powerful thing a GM does.

That's a good point I hadnt considered. By requiring the player to roll, there can be no fudging - everything is out in the open. That's definitely a point in favour, in my view (as an aside I roll all combat dice in the open anyway, always have, but I like how this approach removes dice based fudging).

Quote from: Psikerlord;966835That's a good point I hadnt considered. By requiring the player to roll, there can be no fudging - everything is out in the open. That's definitely a point in favour, in my view (as an aside I roll all combat dice in the open anyway, always have, but I like how this approach removes dice based fudging).

I roll in the open, as well. Just seems the most fair way to do it.

I've always liked the idea of stats meaning something beyond mod generators, and have been toying with a similar idea for my own rules set. This game has pushed me to give it a try. We'll see how it works in reality.

Quote from: Voros;966620What was the first game to have players roll all the dice?

Forge crap.

Quote from: cranebump;966745How is it disempowering you if you can't roll dice. It's not like you can control the result. Unless you're balking at the fact you can't roll and fudge behind a screen? Really, rolling a die is the least powerful thing a GM does.

The GM should have the power to roll or not roll the dice. He should have the absolute power over the game, and over everything to do with the game world.  So he should have the right to decide when to roll the dice, what to roll, how much he needs to get, or not to roll at all and just say "rocks fall, everyone dies".

This is the issue: by taking away mechanical control from the GM it's ALSO saying "the GM has to follow the rules created by the Genius Game Designers using our Sophisticated Theory and our Brilliant Social Theory, because he's just a Monopoly banker".

It's predicated on the idea that the GM is a monster that has to be controlled, and that you're better off trusting Vince Fucking Baker who's never met you or anyone connected to you than Bill your Game Master.

But we're talking mostly here about rolling to determine if the monster hits the PC. Would you ever say that should be decided by DM fiat? And is it that different from Runequest's parry mechanic?

Quote from: RPGPundit;967076The GM should have the power to roll or not roll the dice. He should have the absolute power over the game, and over everything to do with the game world.  So he should have the right to decide when to roll the dice, what to roll, how much he needs to get, or not to roll at all and just say "rocks fall, everyone dies".

This is the issue: by taking away mechanical control from the GM it's ALSO saying "the GM has to follow the rules created by the Genius Game Designers using our Sophisticated Theory and our Brilliant Social Theory, because he's just a Monopoly banker".

It's predicated on the idea that the GM is a monster that has to be controlled, and that you're better off trusting Vince Fucking Baker who's never met you or anyone connected to you than Bill your Game Master.

None of this changes. The only thing at issue is who gets to roll the dice. The GM is still controlling when that happens. Black Hack doesn't have a narrative control system. No Fate Point. No Luck. It's just a different mechanic.

Quote from: Voros;967096And is it that different from Runequest's parry mechanic?

In Runequest, each attack was followed by a parry. So a player would roll his attack and the monster his parry or the monster rolls his attack and the player rolls the parry. The parry roll didn't replace the monster's attack roll. In Black Hack, the PC rolls a Dex check (IIRC) to avoid the attack. As monsters don't have Dex, they can't actually make the same attack avoidance roll. So the mechanics are unbalanced as they apply differently to the monsters than to the players.

The first time I saw this was the Dragonlance SAGA game. It was a bit different as it was a card game but it had the same system were PCs and monsters were fundamentally different in the game (a monster's "attack" is just setting the difficulty of the PC's dodge roll).

I setup my own OD&D attack chart such that it's possible for either the player or the monster to make the roll and the odds are exactly the same. So you could run it as Players Rolls All The Dice or as GM Rolls All The Dice.

I'm aware of how parry works in Runequest. It is still the player rolling to avoid a hit so there are some grounds for comparison. Pundit's issue with it doesn't seem to be balance but removing DM control, but I don't see how it is that different from a saving throw.

And I have to say I don't see the issue of balance unless I'm misunderstanding you. Treating monsters differently than PCs at the table raises no issues of balance per se. Seems to be obsessing on a mechanic for tradition not any practical game reason.