Quote from: Ratman_tf;959624I'd agree. Blizz AFAIK doesn't rub the diversity in people's faces. And good on them for it.

Quote from: Nexus;959645They do seem to be relatively quiet about it. I didn't know about some of the characters traits for quite some time. Ironically, Blizzard is catching a little flak for not putting the nature of their characters to the forefront. AIU, it doesn't come up in the game much at all and is mostly something in related media like comics. Some critics are accusing them of posers and using "diversity" for a few more sales but not truly embracing it.

Interestingly A lot of that is that is the way blizzard is going about making the OW cast. They aren't so much writing characters as they are making real people because real people don't normally when you meet them for the 1st time info dump there lives thoughts and feelings at you. But very often (and this extends to a lot of media in fact) people will tend to info dump the core parts of a character as fast as possible to get it out of the way. While in OW you tend to learn about the cast threw little things.
For example what would lead a girl from a relatively warm part of china to take a job in the Antarctic the anwser is actually found in A chance voice line that only plays occasionally at the start of certain maps  the quote is "Hu ru yi ye chunfeng lai, qian shu wanshuli huakai" in english "As if the vernal breeze had come back overnight, adorning thousands of pear trees with blossoms white" she quoting poetry is short she love show ice and winter fun.


Note sorry for screwing up the thread title i cant seem to find how to change it

Kos, it's called 'Pandering', which is what most companies do to get your money.  Now the good ones, make a big show of it, throw up a lot of smokescreen and then do what they know works (which often isn't pandering to the demographic they claim they are) and then rake in the cash.

Also, video gamers tend to foolishly get attached to companies and will give certain ones free passes no matter how badly they've been treated before.  Blizzard is one of them, they also know how to psychologically manipulate you into thinking that a character is cooler than they really are.

Take Genji and his brother Hanzo, they are pretty much bog standard Americanized Japanese Superhero Fantasies, with the typical fantasy mafia rivalry, right down to the little brother somehow being the 'better' of the two.  Off topic, what the fuck is up with that?  As a big brother, lemme tell you, we take a lot of bullshit so that the younger sibling (brother and/or sister) doesn't have to, but always having to look at a story and see that for some odd reason the elder is ALWAYS the bad guy because reasons annoys me.

Anyway, the story is pretty typical, it's a trope in itself.  But because Blizzard knows how to make interesting art, animations and sound work, they get us sucked in.

Take Soldier 76, he's effectively Marvels The Punisher, with less hair and a more colour costume.  (And before anyone else doesn't make the connection, the Punisher may be a killer, but he doesn't gun down innocents, he will and has, taken bullets for them.  Just like Soldier 76.)  But they created a scenario around him to show what he's like.

The thing is, all the characters in Overwatch are stereotypes, caricatures and larger than life expressions that have shown up in countless comics around the world, but told through a different lens, Blizzards.

What makes them stand out the presentation around them, how they look, how they emote, how they react to stimuli.  Back story is only a small part of what makes a character interesting, it leads up to the moment, the rest of it that's what people come to see/watch/experience.

The constant whining about pandering is becoming mind-numbing. Being offended by others being offended. An endless circle of internet drama and recrimination over nothing.

Quote from: Voros;959942The constant whining about pandering is becoming mind-numbing. Being offended by others being offended. An endless circle of internet drama and recrimination over nothing.

Who's whining?  It's a viable marketing tool.  Use it, abuse it, don't be obvious about it and you'll make green hand over fist.

But this isn't about that, this is about how characters can seem 'alive' by using certain techniques of presentation.

It's the little things that get people attached to certain characters, motions, phrases and visual cues, all these things add to a picture for people to latch onto, to like, love, hate or just remember them in some context.  But like all things, don't over do it.

The term pandering has a negative connotation, maybe choosing a different term if its not being used a negative would help? All media for profit attempts to tailor itself to its audience to some extent. Pandering, IME, is generally used used when it a brazen attempt to more or less suck up to a specific part of the audience and a ham fisted one at that. When diversity crosses into tokenism and check list quotas that feel forced instead of creating interesting characters and interaction, for example.

Let me start by saying sorry to every one for the long reply I forgot to reply to this and had an event to go to with my family from the 1st on so I haven't been online.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;959939Kos, it's called 'Pandering', which is what most companies do to get your money.  Now the good ones, make a big show of it, throw up a lot of smokescreen and then do what they know works (which often isn't pandering to the demographic they claim they are) and then rake in the cash.

Also, video gamers tend to foolishly get attached to companies and will give certain ones free passes no matter how badly they've been treated before.  Blizzard is one of them, they also know how to psychologically manipulate you into thinking that a character is cooler than they really are.

Take Genji and his brother Hanzo, they are pretty much bog standard Americanized Japanese Superhero Fantasies, with the typical fantasy mafia rivalry, right down to the little brother somehow being the 'better' of the two.  Off topic, what the fuck is up with that?  As a big brother, lemme tell you, we take a lot of bullshit so that the younger sibling (brother and/or sister) doesn't have to, but always having to look at a story and see that for some odd reason the elder is ALWAYS the bad guy because reasons annoys me.

Anyway, the story is pretty typical, it's a trope in itself.  But because Blizzard knows how to make interesting art, animations and sound work, they get us sucked in.

Take Soldier 76, he's effectively Marvels The Punisher, with less hair and a more colour costume.  (And before anyone else doesn't make the connection, the Punisher may be a killer, but he doesn't gun down innocents, he will and has, taken bullets for them.  Just like Soldier 76.)  But they created a scenario around him to show what he's like.

The thing is, all the characters in Overwatch are stereotypes, caricatures and larger than life expressions that have shown up in countless comics around the world, but told through a different lens, Blizzards.

What makes them stand out the presentation around them, how they look, how they emote, how they react to stimuli.  Back story is only a small part of what makes a character interesting, it leads up to the moment, the rest of it that's what people come to see/watch/experience.

You know how some times some one make a post that is nothing but eye rolling stupid this is one of those posts.

Lets start off with the biggest fuck up in this post you are operating under A false assumption that I am A fan boy of blizzard which is nothing of the case if a year ago before overwatch came out I had been asked where blizzard was as A company I would have told you they where washed up hacks that opinion has changed most of them are washed up hacks.
Number 2 Making a character that is A living breathing person that feels like they have lived a life up to that point (which was the point of my post) is not pandering its a very hard thing to do and A number of very successful franchises fail at it.
As to your comment about Hanzo and Genji have A lot less to do with being "Superhero Fantasies" and more stock characters fleshed out they are classic archetypes from fiction two that and very common in Japaneses mysthos Hanzo is the honorable man / samurai trying to atone for his sins and mistakes. Genji is the man who was consumed by vengeance and has learned to move past it it's also worth pointing out that EVERY character has been done before to at least some degree the world is a finite place even in fiction. Whats more taking stock character and fleshing them out is A very common practice (see its all been done before) I dont even need to touch on 76 at this point as its pretty much self explaining at this point. I cant even fathom where you pulled the Genji being better from.

As to back story you are A moron if you think its unimportant it in some cases may be only a small part of who they are now but it is often a huge part of how they got there to the point where some are inseparably linked to there back story.
A very good example we watch him grow as A person quite a bit for his short screen time and yet this is still probably his biggest defining line which is ify his back story in a nut shell.

Is Overwatch okay, good or excellent? I generally dig Blizzard stuff, but I haven't checked out OW yet.

Quote from: Spinachcat;961573Is Overwatch okay, good or excellent? I generally dig Blizzard stuff, but I haven't checked out OW yet.

well I say take an afternoon and learn the lore a touch if you are interested.
As to game play I love the game and find it to be fantastic but its worth pointing out its more of A team based game then a skill based game so if you when a 2v1 duel you didn't just do well you did great.
So like you can have huge impact and even carry a game but even the best players in the game cant win A 6v1 under normal circumstances and it's probably worth pointing out that I am not A blizzard fan so if I like the game this much then must have done something right.

You guys realize you're arguing about characterization in a multiplayer shooter, right?

You may as well argue over who has the more tragic destiny, Blanka or Zangief*, or whether Ken or Ryu remains more true to the ethos of their master.

Spoiler

*It's Zangief

Well, as far Ken and Ryu I've seen similar discussions actually take place among fans. Yeah, its "silly" in the sense they're fictional characters in a video game but does debates about who can beat who: the Hulk or Superman make anymore sense (hint: whoever the writer wants)? Or the Force "really" (whatever the writer or whatever you imagine it to be if you don't like that) They're characters with backgrounds, fictional personas, etc like any other. Why not talk about that, what you like and don't? Its another form of fiction nor more or less inherently important or discussion worthy than movies, books or Elf Games (most importantly making sure other people know if they're playing them wrong).

Having developed characters and a plot adds depth and enjoyment for many fans. Otherwise the characters could be "Tele-shooter A" and "Ice Maker B" with generic sprites and save allot of programming time. Sure the game isn't about their deep psychological issue but its lends some purpose and meaning to the action plus its fun to think about. Its a little like rpgs in that sense.

Basically, does any of the shit we debate/argue about on places like this really make sense, a difference or end of the day matter much at all? Not really but its fun.

Quote from: CRKrueger;962487You guys realize you're arguing about characterization in a multiplayer shooter, right?

You may as well argue over who has the more tragic destiny, Blanka or Zangief*, or whether Ken or Ryu remains more true to the ethos of their master.

Spoiler

*It's Zangief

Be quite you we are trying to have a pointless argument here ;p.

Quote from: Nexus;962515Well, as far Ken and Ryu I've seen similar discussions actually take place among fans. Yeah, its "silly" in the sense they're fictional characters in a video game but does debates about who can beat who: the Hulk or Superman make anymore sense (hint: whoever the writer wants)? Or the Force "really" (whatever the writer or whatever you imagine it to be if you don't like that) They're characters with backgrounds, fictional personas, etc like any other. Why not talk about that, what you like and don't? Its another form of fiction nor more or less inherently important or discussion worthy than movies, books or Elf Games (most importantly making sure other people know if they're playing them wrong).

Having developed characters and a plot adds depth and enjoyment for many fans. Otherwise the characters could be "Tele-shooter A" and "Ice Maker B" with generic sprites and save allot of programming time. Sure the game isn't about their deep psychological issue but its lends some purpose and meaning to the action plus its fun to think about. Its a little like rpgs in that sense.

Basically, does any of the shit we debate/argue about on places like this really make sense, a difference or end of the day matter much at all? Not really but its fun.

Exactly.

Quote from: kosmos1214;961638...well I say take an afternoon and learn the lore a touch if you are interested.

If I was going to decide to check out a shooter the last thing I would worry about is the lore.