Let me echo everything David said about painting figures.

I would also recommend, if you can, get some cheap figures, or used figures, or something that doesn't cost you much, and a couple of craft store brushes and five or six colors of craft store cheap acrylic paint.

Then sit down and slobber some paint on some figures.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?  Practice, practice, practice.

It's like when I started learning to weather model railroad cars.  At every flea market there are "junkers" for a buck... missing wheels, or the roof walk is missing, or the doors are gone, or they're just generally bunged up.

Who cares.  I bought half a dozen dollar junk cars, and some earth colored and rust colored cheap paint, and started assassinating cars.  The first ones looked pretty awful, but who cares?  After enough practice, I now do weathering that draws compliments.

Practice, practice, practice.

Quote from: Headless;959692In regards to law.  I found a legal blog a while back.  He was talking about Hebrew and Shria Law.  Both of which were open source.  There were 4 schools of law inthe Ottomen empire and at least two schools of scholars in the Herbrew terdition.  If you had a dispute you both went to scholar and they would consult the books and give you a judgement.  

Anyway open souce law or maybe free market law is a better term.

And on the political side the world Caliphate would have and intergration of Church and State.  But a Separation of state and Justice or law.  Might be just as good for personal freedom.

Sounds like there would be a LOT of opportunities to influence which sources were referenced and weighted in your favor.

As for The Petal Throne, would the oldest record have the most "weight" in a decision or some other factor.
I can see the search for "lost" documents and their forgeries as being opportunities for "adventure".
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I also recommend that people read "Time Traveler's Guide to the 14th Century" for its discussion on medieval justice.  The whole "trial by jury" means something VERY different in other societies, and "evidence" does not mean what you think it means.

Quote from: David Johansen;959689I suggested Vivaldi or Wagner for the music and Morgan Freeman for my voice, but they had to use what the College had in its library.

Okay, the basics are clippers, an x-acto knife, brushes, and paints.  For plastics, a set of flush cutting clippers will save you a world of pain.  For brushes I use cheap nylon brushes, I do most of my painting with a number six but you'll also want a 3 and a 000.  One mistake beginners make is using too small of a brush.  They come to a point for a reason.  Some folks love a sable brush.  I do if I'm drawing in brush and ink but miniatures painting is hard on brushes and I'm not a fan of trashing $30 brushes.

Paints come in various qualities.  Most miniatures painting paints are really good: smooth, and highly pigmented.  If you're a beginner that doesn't matter so much but if you want really good results you need really good paints.  Craft store and dollar store paints will do for learning.  I mostly use Army Painter but Games Workshop and Privateer really do make better paints, more expensive but better.  Many people love Vallejo but personally it's too thin and a bit glossier than I'd like.

White Dwarf magazine still does okay painting tutorials.  The basic approach is clean up the mould lines and flash, paint on a base coat, pick out the details, shade and highlight.

Good modern plastic and metal figures don't have many mould-lines, but second tier companies and resin figures often do.  The X-Acto blade with a curved top is handy for this as it can be pushed along like a chisel.  Plastic figures are often in more parts and need assembled.  Model cement is great for plastics and terrible for everything else.  Many people prefer a brush on liquid cement as tube control is a learned skill.  Super glue gel is good for most other things.  Metal kits often have larger gaps which are best joined with two-part epoxy.

You can spray on your base coat and Army Painter has a great line of spray primers.  If you're not painting sports cars or space marines, you'll want a white, grey, brown, or black base coat.  White is best if you're using cheaper paints as they won't be opaque enough to cover a dark base coat.

You can paint on a base coat.  For more complex models brushing it on gives better coverage.  I use acrylic primer with a bit of Future floor wax to thin it down.  Don't try this at home.    Primer matters more on metal figures than plastics.  Soft plastics like toy soldiers should be base coated with Krylon for Plastic spray paint.  Reaper Bones and many board game figures are Vinyl and should absolutely not be painted with Krylon For Plastic as it reacts badly.  Plastics and resin figures often need washed with warm soapy water and allowed to dry before base coating.  

Most painters use acrylic paints, these have little to no odor and thin out with water.  Artists acrylics work but require more skill in thinning and getting the right consistency.  Enamels like Testors model paints don't need a primer on metal but require spirits to thin them and stink enough that your wife will send you out to the shed.  Really top notch painters use oil paints which stink less than enamels and are thinned with linseed oil but will still get you kicked to the shed.  Don't bother with oil paints they take forever to dry.  If you're doing non-metallic metallic and light sources and worrying about really consistent blends that'll hold up under a magnifying glass and painting one or two figures over the course of a year, oils are fantastic but if you're painting stuff that people will play with and touch, don't bother.

You want to mostly use flat paints not glossy ones.  They just look better and show detail more clearly.  If you're using cheap paint it'll be a bit glossy.  Army Painter (whee look at me schill) has good dull coat you can use to tone down the gloss.  Start painting with the skin and work up to the large areas and then the details.  You actually want to overlap your layers as nothing looks worse than a white patch between details and its easier to pick out raised details.  Shading and highlighting can really improve a figure as can lettering, patterns, tattoos and other painted detail but those are a bit advanced for this thread.  You can do a simple wash slopped all over the figure with really thinned out burnt umber paint that will sink into the recesses and give a simple dip effect without the glossiness of varnish or floor wax dips.

Nice...much to digest!!! Monday may be my day to take a trip into the city to get supplies!!! Thanks for the detailed post.

H:0)

Quote from: Hrugga;959613In other words, if I am walking through the market and I feel a tug at my belt. If the perpetrator is caught, he should be summarly thrashed and sent on his way...

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Yep. You'd yell "I've been robbed! That's the thief!" and point. The usual market full of rabble would chase the thief down for you, and bring them back for your amusement. You would, of course, tip them, and then wreak your revenge on the thief for everyone. The Market Police would take a statement, making sure you'd nailed the guilty party, and then haul the miscreant off to the station house for another good thrashing for creating a ruckus. They'd expect a small tip, as well. And then, assuming that the thief had a clan, they'd give the idiot another good thrashing for getting caught and making them look bad. Everybody, except the thief, goes away happy and amused by at afternoon of fun.

Professional thieves, on the other hand, belong to decent and respectable clans and undertake their capers by commission. Player characters are often hired by these upstanding member of society for jobs as they are usually cheap and expendable. Mayhem usually ensues.

I, for example, keep some very professional thieves and tomb robbers on the payroll for those times when I need something done on the quiet - cohorts of heavy and medium infantry are neither quiet or discreet - and I can't find any player characters to hire. Figures from Dark Fable Miniatures.

Quote from: Greentongue;959678It would seem that with so many people using game modules, having the miniatures that would go with each, for rent, might work.
I suspect more people would like to use miniatures for their games but can't afford to invest in something that they will only use once and have no place to store.

Unlike chirine, not everyone has a spare basement to keep things in and years to build up a wide selection.
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FFG has rental figures and terrain at their Event Center.

And I've really cut back, too. At the height of my gaming, I had some 32,000 miniatures to hand for all the settings I played in, and my logbooks say that I've painted some 64,000 miniatures of all kinds over the decade.

It's been a sad, lonely life, but then I'm a sad lonely old man who's also a  model railway enthusiast. Wanna talk about GWR Instanter three-link couplings on post-Grouping goods wagons? We could go a whole page before everyone's heads exploded from sheer boredom...

Quote from: Hrugga;959683I know there was a discussion about painting miniatures in part I of the thread. Not sure if we covered this, but here goes. What would a "newbie" need to start themselves off successfully painting miniatures? Such as paints, brushes, tools, and other equipment needed? How much would one have to spend more or less?

Also what are some good references that you could turn to for guidance(in addition to Uncle and others here who have a wealth of experience in the hobby)? Thanks.

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PS If we did indeed discuss this, disregard. I will take a look back at part I...

Army Painter has a free guide, and there are lots of good on-line sources. We did indeed discuss this, but the reply you got from david sums it all up nicely. And, as Gronan says, practice!!!

Quote from: Greentongue;959720Sounds like there would be a LOT of opportunities to influence which sources were referenced and weighted in your favor.

As for The Petal Throne, would the oldest record have the most "weight" in a decision or some other factor.
I can see the search for "lost" documents and their forgeries as being opportunities for "adventure".
=

Yes, indeed! Precedent is very important, and very often quoted.

Yep; it's why one hires player-characters to look in those musty old archives for you. Mayhem very often ensues.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;959756Wanna talk about GWR Instanter three-link couplings on post-Grouping goods wagons? We could go a whole page before everyone's heads exploded from sheer boredom...

My only qualm about three-link couplings is that my eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be.  I have to use an Optovisor just to build kits nowadays.  

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;959765My only qualm about three-link couplings is that my eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be.  I have to use an Optovisor just to build kits nowadays.  

The Optovisor is an supremely useful tool, too; I don't know how I ever managed without one.

And for those of you who are not members of the same obscure cult that Gronan and I are...

https://www.pendonmuseum.com/

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whitby_Allen

I aspire to the former, and Gronan aspires to the latter.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;959755Yep. You'd yell "I've been robbed! That's the thief!" and point. The usual market full of rabble wound chase the thief down for you, and bring them back for your amusement. You would, of course, tip them, and then wreak your revenge on the thief for everyone. The Market Police would take a statement, making sure you'd nailed the guilty party, and then haul the miscreant off to the station house for another good thrashing for creating a ruckus. They'd expect a small tip, as well. And then, assuming that the thief had a clan, they'd give the idiot another good thrashing for getting caught and making them look bad. Everybody, except the thief, goes away happy and amused by at afternoon of fun.

Professional thieves, on the other hand, belong to decent and respectable clans and undertake their capers by commission. Player characters are often hired by these upstanding member of society for jobs as they are usually cheap and expendable. Mayhem usually ensues.

I, for example, keep some very professional thieves and tomb robbers on the payroll for those times when I need something done on the quiet - cohorts of heavy and medium infantry are neither quiet or discreet - and I can't find any player characters to hire. Figures from Dark Fable Miniatures.

Haha!!! I have witnessed a few such in incidents when I was in the Dominican Republic. Some stupid fellow had the nerve to try to burglar a home. With cries of "LADRÓN!!! LADRÓN!!!" Everybody and their mother came outside and gave him a proper trouncing till he could not move. He was left there in the gutter. Another time, another fool tried to steal someone's motorbike and recieved a beating from the victim, his family. And then a bit later by the police...Seems brutal, but when you have to work so hard for what you have. You are not going to let some thief take it from you. There are consequences!!! Oh my...So not so different on Tekumel!!!

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Quote from: chirine ba kal;959757Army Painter has a free guide, and there are lots of good on-line sources. We did indeed discuss this, but the reply you got from david sums it all up nicely. And, as Gronan says, practice!!!

Thank you. I am going to look into it.

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In the EPT rules, 2300. SUPPORT, SALARIES, JOBS, FIEFS, AND TAXES it talks about a fief being granted.

How often has this occurred that you know of and how good would this be as a start for players?
For example, an NPC has been given this fief and the players are in the family/lineage that has to make things work.

Is there enough information published to support this?  (Like for Pendragon)
Or, would it have to be all hand-wave by the GM?

Are there special consideration that are specific to Tsolyanu that would make playing this more than just an exercise in bookkeeping?
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Quote from: Hrugga;959858Haha!!! I have witnessed a few such in incidents when I was in the Dominican Republic. Some stupid fellow had the nerve to try to burglar a home. With cries of "LADRÓN!!! LADRÓN!!!" Everybody and their mother came outside and gave him a proper trouncing till he could not move. He was left there in the gutter. Another time, another fool tried to steal someone's motorbike and recieved a beating from the victim, his family. And then a bit later by the police...Seems brutal, but when you have to work so hard for what you have. You are not going to let some thief take it from you. There are consequences!!! Oh my...So not so different on Tekumel!!!

Very much so. The 'authorities' get involved when the Big Four seem to be in play, other then that they're more or less there to keep things in order.

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This is a good example of Phil's having to get us to stop thinking in 'first world' terms, and thinking in 'third or fourth world ones'; the terms hadn't been invented back then, but they fit.

From Greentongue:
In the EPT rules, 2300. SUPPORT, SALARIES, JOBS, FIEFS, AND TAXES it talks about a fief being granted.

How often has this occurred that you know of and how good would this be as a start for players?
For example, an NPC has been given this fief and the players are in the family/lineage that has to make things work.

I can think of six players who got fiefs in Phil's campaign. The first two were in the original group before we split, and ended badly - one was the slave revolt in Ferenara.

No, I don't. This was Phil's version of Gary and Dave's 'domain' game', an I think that beginning players would flounder in trying to mater both the setting and run the fief at the same time. By the same token, your having them as 'trouble-shooters' for the actual fief-holder is very good, and very workable as a way to get new players into the setting.

Is there enough information published to support this?  (Like for Pendragon)
Or, would it have to be all hand-wave by the GM?

Probably not; there is some information out there in the texts and on the web, but a GM would have to do some work to get it all together.

Never played or looked at Pendragon, so I have no data.

"Hand-wave". I think what we're looking at here is the basic failure of Dave, Gary, and Phil in both original D&D and EPT to anticipate the way that the 'career path' or 'story arc' of the player-character would develop. All three assumed that the PCs would go up in 'level' to the point where they would become 'settled citizens' and establish their own domains; from these, new PCs would be sent forth by the old ones on quests and missions in a 'patron / client' model (such as Phil uses in EPT with Lady Mnella in Jakalla) and which would result in a 'churn' / 'turnover' of PCs over the length of a campaign. Being 'first generation' RPG writers, all three badly misjudged the way players wanted to play.

None of them really gave any specific and detailed rules for how to create or run a fief, because they all assumed - based on their players' store of knowledge - that everyone would have some idea of how a fief worked. From their personal experiences, they assumed that players and GMs would be able to run things - or do the research to find out - and didn't think that they had to tell people in any great detail what to do.

So, yes, I think a GM would have to 'hand-wave' a lot of the details, which may not be possible for some. (Which gets back to a lot of what Gronan has said, over the years about imagination, in my opinion.) Do I wish Phil had said more? Yes, but then he also assumed that I knew something about the subject and could 'fake it', either as a player - which I did - or as a GM - which I've done.

Are there special consideration that are specific to Tsolyanu that would make playing this more than just an exercise in bookkeeping?

I think so; being a fief-holder is a personally risky business, as you have to get out there and keep tabs on the locals. Who all have their own agendas, and have their own weapons. And there's the flora and fauna, too. I had to deal with a tribal rebellion, which kept us occupied for months of gaming. You have to keep order, keep paying taxes, and all within the social and physical constraints of the setting. No cavalry, which has a huge effect on mobility and your way of thinking.