Quote from: Catelf;955172Let's see if I get this straight:
Some people are arguing that random rolls isn't unfair, because .... it barely has any impact?!
Also, Gronan claim that it is funny?
No, no, no, no, no.
Nonsense.
Sure, I grasp that it can be fun, when there is no direct importance in something that is supposedly required, you frequently fill it with fun instead.
That is a known psychological effect, albeit subconscious, as the thing itself perhaps isn't that funny.
Or perhaps it is funny, and that is removed as soon as it gets too important.

So why have a game with stats that are redundant?

Also, If the stats are redundant, then that is not any game where this discussion is very important now, is it?
Essentially, at least 2/3, probably more, of this thread is totally unimportant for the TOPIC!
Sheesh.

Well, since I started and stuck with games where the attributes are the main things that do directly affect what the characters can do, I share your wonder at why D&D works as it does. These systems (mainly TFT & GURPS) are also point-buy systems. They mention random as an option, but someone should really tweak those tables because too much randomness makes really bizarre characters in those games, which expect more regular and related stats for most people, and also you still need to pick talents and so on in ways that make sense, as those games also don't use character classes.

If players can choose which random rolls go for which attribute, then that seems sort of like point-buy to me, at least after you see what numbers you get to move around.

In TFT & GURPS, really random characters could be extremely different in power level. If the range of possible values goes from lowest normal human value to the highest you could start with, then someone could start with a character as powerful as one who has gained experience through several years of successful play, or be an athletically hopeless dullard.

TFT & GURPS also generally design in a wide variety of choices so there is not just one ideal set of best values for the same class. (Although original GURPS Magic did have a "too good/efficient/common" combo for IQ + Magery.)

Quote from: Catelf;955172Let's see if I get this straight:
Some people are arguing that random rolls isn't unfair, because .... it barely has any impact?!
Also, Gronan claim that it is funny?
No, no, no, no, no.
Nonsense.
Sure, I grasp that it can be fun, when there is no direct importance in something that is supposedly required, you frequently fill it with fun instead.
That is a known psychological effect, albeit subconscious, as the thing itself perhaps isn't that funny.
Or perhaps it is funny, and that is removed as soon as it gets too important.

So why have a game with stats that are redundant?

Also, If the stats are redundant, then that is not any game where this discussion is very important now, is it?
Essentially, at least 2/3, probably more, of this thread is totally unimportant for the TOPIC!
Sheesh.

I think you are missing what I am saying (although it is really hard to tell, could you perhaps explain yourself better?). In the passage you are quoting, I am not saying that stats barely has any impact and/or are redundant. I am saying that (in B/X, BECMI, and 5e) the stat itself (say an 18), has very little relevance distinct from the bonus it informs (a +3 in B/X, or a +4 in 5e). Omega commenting with incredulity that people he knows dislike those "empty spaces" in attribute charts (where increasing the base attribute does nothing), and I'm pointing out that they are correct.

As to stats themselves being redundant or not mattering--well, Gronan is right. In OD&D w/o Greyhawk expansion, stats don't really do all that much. You can call it nonsense all you want, but that's the case.
As to 'So why have a game with stats that are redundant?' --that is a good question, and Omega already asked that. And Gronan answered:

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955117Because "he thought it was fun" can't possibly be right.  Rolling to see what you get was considered by us to be fun.

Now, that only matters if you care what Gronan and EGG, etc. considered fun. You could reasonably argue that for your OD&D campaign, you don't even need stats. I doubt very many people will do that though.

Quote from: Thegn Ansgar;955168Not saying it doesn't happen, but it reeks of projection on the parts of those who say it does with such vehemence. I'm not implying that you have done so of course.

Or maybe we've spent 44 years filtering out tempermental players.

Also, Certain Other Boards are full of this shit, don't take my word for it.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;955182Now, that only matters if you care what Gronan and EGG, etc. considered fun. You could reasonably argue that for your OD&D campaign, you don't even need stats. I doubt very many people will do that though.

I've played both; TFT is point buy, for instance.

Some people like one, some like the other.  Non disputatus de gustibus.  It's when people start whining about why one or the other is "objectively BAD" that the shit starts to fly.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;955182Now, that only matters if you care what Gronan and EGG, etc. considered fun. You could reasonably argue that for your OD&D campaign, you don't even need stats. I doubt very many people will do that though.

Why can't people admit that there is something to D&D being just a fun way of running tabletop RPGs. One that captured the imagination of hundreds of thousands if not millions. Not everybody has to like D&D, and hand in hand with that not everybody will like D&D. But in terms of mass popularity D&D in all of it different forms is THE RPG for most hobbyists.

OD&D is the rare instance where the creators of a hobby and industry got it right from the get go. Most of the time it takes two or three cycles of development to get it right for something novel and different.

And this situation doesn't take anything way from what other RPGs have accomplished or developed. Ever since Tunnel & Trolls and other alternatives came into the hobby there been a minority that has it out for D&D regardless of editions.

And before anybody criticizes me as been a stuck in the mud old school, I ran multiple fantasy campaigns using multiple system including a Fantasy Age variant the fourth quarter of 2016.

Again rolling random stats works, point buy works, just go with what you like. The consequences to both methods, and there are hybrids that also work with their own consequences. None of them are "best" in all circumstances. And you will find your interested in specific methods of chargen changing over time as you participate in the hobby.

Quote from: estar;955185Why can't people admit that there is something to D&D being just a fun way of running tabletop RPGs. One that captured the imagination of hundreds of thousands if not millions. Not everybody has to like D&D, and hand in hand with that not everybody will like D&D. But in terms of mass popularity D&D in all of it different forms is THE RPG for most hobbyists.

Who are these people who aren't admitting that D&D is a fun, popular game?

QuoteOD&D is the rare instance where the creators of a hobby and industry got it right from the get go. Most of the time it takes two or three cycles of development to get it right for something novel and different.

And this situation doesn't take anything way from what other RPGs have accomplished or developed. Ever since Tunnel & Trolls and other alternatives came into the hobby there been a minority that has it out for D&D regardless of editions.

And before anybody criticizes me as been a stuck in the mud old school, I ran multiple fantasy campaigns using multiple system including a Fantasy Age variant the fourth quarter of 2016.

Again. This seems like you are getting very excited and a bit defensive against accusations that have not been made.

QuoteAgain rolling random stats works, point buy works, just go with what you like. The consequences to both methods, and there are hybrids that also work with their own consequences. None of them are "best" in all circumstances. And you will find your interested in specific methods of chargen changing over time as you participate in the hobby.

Cool.

Quote from: nDervishWhat about the argument that point-buy doesn't provide a level playing field, but instead tends to reward system mastery and penalize the lack of same? (Hell, with their admitted inclusion of "trap options", D&D3 was deliberately intended to give unfair advantages to those who weren't aware of the traps!)

Quote from: Tequila SunriseMy opinion is this: If you're concerned with PC-PC balance, and I am, depending on fate to start the noob or casual gamer with great stats and the system master with poor stats is a sad solution. It only ends up that way sometimes, and when fate is a bitch, the system master gets even more of an advantage.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955139Why?

Because I've experienced the frustration that results from named-crew-plus-redshirts parties, from both the player side and the DM side. And contrary to what some interwebbers seem to believe, being a mature adult able to swallow your disappointment for a game session or three doesn't magically make a frustrating experience any less disappointing. But this is all tangential to my exchange with nDervish and to the thread's topic, so that's all I'll say for now.

Here's an (I think) interesting question for D&D players who like rolling for stats:

1. What if you also rolled for starting level? How much of a random level spread would seem good? Or does that seem like a non-starter?

2. What if your starting level were determined by some calculation based on the opposite of your attribute rolls? So if you roll bad stats, you start at a higher level than the PCs who roll great stats?

Are either of those actual options that anyone here has tried or even prefers?

(It comes to mind because the effect on, say TFT of rolling 3d6 for its attributes would be about like rolling for level with "crippled retarded lvl 0" and "already a powerful hero" and "clumsy muscleman genius" as fairly likely results.)

Quote from: cranebump;955170Amen. I think I'm really buying into the argument that point buy rewards system mastery more than anything else.

That said, we'll see what happens tonight if someone rolls a 5...

1: Like any game, mechanic, system, whatever. In the wrong hands its going to be broken somehow, some way. Ive seen designers obsess over "fixing" this with more and more stringent mechanics and I keep telling them that its not going to stop bad behavior.

2: See my AD&D example earlier where I rolled a 5. I guess I should congratulate myself for beating the odds and getting something under a 6 even. In 5e depending on the race chosen the 5 can become a 6 or 7 if you really wanted. It will become a 6 with a standard human. And from practice I dont suggest allowing the option human.

Quote from: Catelf;955172So why have a game with stats that are redundant?

Also, If the stats are redundant, then that is not any game where this discussion is very important now, is it?
Essentially, at least 2/3, probably more, of this thread is totally unimportant for the TOPIC!
Sheesh.

I agree. But... I do believe even OD&D had stat checks. And aside from Strength and Wisdom the stats do actually grand some small bonus.

Think of it more like that roll to see if you get psionics or qualifying for a Paladin or one of the other high stat requirement classes in AD&D. Its a pretty low chance.

Its there to reward a lucky roll. You got a 17 DEX? Here, have a +1 to hit with bows.

Pretty much the same in BX but you got sometimes a slightly better bonus. up to +3. But those are still fairly rare.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;955193Who are these people who aren't admitting that D&D is a fun, popular game?

Let me guess... You are really young to the internet?

Quote from: Skarg;955215Here's an (I think) interesting question for D&D players who like rolling for stats:

1. What if you also rolled for starting level? How much of a random level spread would seem good? Or does that seem like a non-starter?

2. What if your starting level were determined by some calculation based on the opposite of your attribute rolls? So if you roll bad stats, you start at a higher level than the PCs who roll great stats?

Are either of those actual options that anyone here has tried or even prefers?

(It comes to mind because the effect on, say TFT of rolling 3d6 for its attributes would be about like rolling for level with "crippled retarded lvl 0" and "already a powerful hero" and "clumsy muscleman genius" as fairly likely results.)

1: Personally I wouldn't like it for the same reason I don't like pure random rolling for race or class. Its too much random I have no say over. Which is part of why I am not fond of Rev AD&D and 2e's roll 3 in order and no point swapping. One main problem I know exists in 5e would be that the lower leveled character can never quite catch up to the higher level one. They will get close and probably fairly fast if they survive. But will perpetually be about 1 level behind. In BX and AD&D to 2e that can be a problem too for some classes. But a fast levelling class like the Thief and Cleric will catch up or even possibly pass them. The Thief and Cleric will certainly pull ahead of the Fighter and Magic User even if all start at level 1.

2: There is actually at least one RPG that does that. But I cannot recall what it was. Essentially if you rolled really low stats you got a bump in level. I think you could also sacrifice stat points to start out at a higher starting level?

3: Id give rolling levels a go long as the difference was not too huge. It would be the same as asking if I''d be ok with everyone rolling for a chance to start out with a piece of +1 equipment.

4: From what little I know of TFT rolling stats would be a stupid idea as the system doesnt really work with it? Its geared around a different balance. It would be like how some suggest changing D&D stat rolls to a flat d20. And I have to explain that the system is not designed for that as its designed for stats within the bell curve and a different spread of numbers.

This entire argument is just a distraction from the true choice separating REAL roleplayers from those whiny posers...

Solid polyhedral dice, which as everyone knows are fair, well-balanced, stalwart and the only choice for true old school players
 vs
those sinister clear polyhedral dice, the choice for hipsters and swine! Deceitful, childish, and a mockery of everything our hobby holds dear.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;955234This entire argument is just a distraction from the true choice separating REAL roleplayers from those whiny posers...

Solid polyhedral dice, which as everyone knows are fair, well-balanced, stalwart and the only choice for true old school players
 vs
those sinister clear polyhedral dice, the choice for hipsters and swine! Deceitful, childish, and a mockery of everything our hobby holds dear.

Sadly, this topic is exactly as worthy as the ass-wipings of the actual thread.

Well played, TE.

Interesting. Thanks Omega.

Ya, the effect on TFT would be crazy, in D&D terms, either rolling wildly for level, or rolling 3d6 -10 (so -7 to +8) and applying that instead of the usual possible +/- 1-3 effect of D&D attributes on actually doing anything. Because in TFT, you generally roll on DX itself to hit, and ST _is_ your hitpoints, and determines how much damage you do per hit, and so on.