What did they not like about 3e or 5e? Because if it was excessive crunch I can't see them digging a reskinned 1e which will still have a lot of that crunch.

If that's the case the Rules Cyclopedia, which collects all of the rules from level 1-36 for classic Basic D&D is your best bet. It is also available on Drivethrurpg for $10.

Quote from: Voros;952333What did they not like about 3e or 5e? Because if it was excessive crunch I can't see them digging a reskinned 1e which will still have a lot of that crunch.

Crunch itself isn't a problem (I'm currently running Shadowrun for some of them and Hero for some others).  We had some good 3e games, but people got tired of how long character creation took and how dominant offense was over defense at mid to high levels.

4e had some good ideas (faster character creation if nothing else), but inflated hitpoints made combat take too long and missing with daily powers was a recurring source of frustration.

5e got the least exposure.  Several of us played a playtest game at a convention, which was terribly run and left a bad taste in everyone's mouths.  When the final version came out, no one who read it could give a compelling answer to the question "why should we play this instead of something else?". I know a lot of people are really enthusiastic about 5e, so I'd like to give it another shot (probably with a game shop group), but the scheduling just hasn't worked out yet.

For a dungeon crawling game to succeed with them now, I'd like to see something that plays quickly (both in character creation and in combat) while still having a decent amount of crunch.  Support for sandbox-style play is also a plus (though that might just be my personal nostalgia for treasure tables talking).

I like 5e a lot. It is very modular. If you take out feats, which are optional, chargen and play will be quite fast.

Quote from: Voros;952360I like 5e a lot. It is very modular. If you take out feats, which are optional, chargen and play will be quite fast.

True. You stick to the free download, with its pared down race/class choices, it's even faster (and likely the only version of 5E I'll ever run now, if I get back to it).

Quote from: AmbitiousGM;952064Mostly curiosity.  I have found that what a group of gamers changes (or preserves) in a system can tell me a lot about what they value and how they play.  I want to understand the community as well as the systems.

Also, I think I'll have an easier time selling my current gaming group on a system they haven't heard of before than an older edition of D&D.  Most of them didn't experience anything TSR produced and have developed some negative associations with the brand.  I hope I'll be able to get them to try it eventually, but an intermediate step will make things easier.

What does B/X stand for?  I'm not familiar with that one.

If your players problems with D&D are character bloat and excessive combat length, then going back to earlier editions can certainly help. Around the time 3E became to lose its shine in my gaming circles, I broke out B/X for a group of players that started with 3E, and they absolutely loved how fast and easy it was. They also liked the way dungeons adventures worked in a way that they didn't in later editions.

With 3E, a few fights could eat an entire session,  which meant exploring even an average dungeon by classic module standards could get tedious. With B/X rules, they were able to get deep into a dungeon in a single session, with the exploration and mapping of the complex being a much larger focus.

Still, I don't know if it is good idea to use an OSR game to try and "trick" your players into trying D&D again. Maybe the title and cover will fool them, but the second you have them roll 3D6 for abilities and pick classes, their D&D alarm is going to go off, and they might recoil from it. If they feel you set them up, it's going to make it harder to sell them on it.

I'd be honest with your group. Talk to them about about how you weren't happy with later editions either and be specific in how you think moving to an older edition or OSR title is going to fix problems your group had with D&D.

If you are insistent on trying to get them into D&D through subterfuge, I'd recommend going with the one of the non-fantasy titles from Sine Nomine that are based on the D&D B/X system.

Stars Without Number is a space opera game that had a free edition. There is also Other Dust, a post-apocalyptic game in the same setting, and Silent Legions, a horror game. The change is obvious setting might be enough to keep them from getting suspicious. Then, if they like the mechanics, you can tell them about this fantasy game that uses the same mechanics, and pull out the Fantasy OSR game of your choice.

Quote from: Voros;952333What did they not like about 3e or 5e? Because if it was excessive crunch I can't see them digging a reskinned 1e which will still have a lot of that crunch.

While 1E had serious organizational issues, I don't think it is nearly as crunchy as 3E, and you get even lighter if go to B/X.

Quote from: AmbitiousGM;952338For a dungeon crawling game to succeed with them now, I'd like to see something that plays quickly (both in character creation and in combat) while still having a decent amount of crunch.  Support for sandbox-style play is also a plus (though that might just be my personal nostalgia for treasure tables talking).

I some how missed this post. If you are looking for sandbox support, then my recommendation for Sine Nomine products is even higher. They are loaded with tables for generating settings and plots. You can download the free version of Stars Without Number here to get an idea.

That aside, OSR games are broadly compatible, and there are plenty of sandboxes and sandbox generation tools out there. The D30 Sandbox Companion is a great one, although as the name implies, it does require a d30.

Hate the rules bloat of modern RPGs? Dislike 3X and glut of d20 RPGs? Castles & Crusades is the penultimate 'OSR' game, unless you intend to run stock AD&D. In my opinion, it beats out Basic Fantasy & Lamentations of the Flame Princess in its elegance of a unified dice mechanic. Best of all - you can use it to run practically any OSR/AD&D-styled adventure with little to no changes, using on the Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook.

But don't take my word for it; read within to get a detailed breakdown of C&C, illustrating why it is the best OSR product on the market: http://www.rpgmusings.com/2015/03/castles-and-crusades-review/

EDIT
Another fantastic review with its strengths and weaknesses, including comparisons to Basic Fantasy and AD&D 3e: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=91636&products_id=105322

Quote from: AmbitiousGM;952285The association is with "Dungeons and Dragons", as they tried three different editions of it (3, 4, and 5) and had consistently negative experiences.  While I know from personal experience that TSR produced a very different game from any that WotC did, after 3 strikes "here's another D&D" isn't likely to get a great response.  I'm hoping I can run something successful first, then introduce an older edition as having more in common with the game they just played and liked than the WotC ones they didn't.

Are The Fantasy Trip pdfs available for sale anywhere?  I'd love to pick up a set but haven't been able to find them.

Thanks again to everyone who shared recommendations; everything I've looked at so far seems promising.

Here's a TFT fan page to start: https://inthelabyrinth.org/rulebooks/
There is also this retroclone Warrior and Wizard by Chris Goodwin (here the first link I found): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bH58K8Lmd3seAErMxCxda1x7roL7YhZqwuF_YqICbN0/edit
There is this clone by Dark City games: http://www.darkcitygames.com/docs/Legends.pdf
Lastly this clone Heroes & Other Worlds:  http://heroworlds.blogspot.com/

I don't know much about The Fantasy Trip other than that it was a precursor to GURPS 1E of sorts, but if you're interested in old-school simplified D&D-style OSR gaming, I would like to re-iterate Basic Fantasy as a system.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;952416Hate the rules bloat of modern RPGs? Dislike 3X and glut of d20 RPGs? Castles & Crusades is the penultimate 'OSR' game, unless you intend to run stock AD&D. In my opinion, it beats out Basic Fantasy & Lamentations of the Flame Princess in its elegance of a unified dice mechanic. Best of all - you can use it to run practically any OSR/AD&D-styled adventure with little to no changes, using on the Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook.

But don't take my word for it; read within to get a detailed breakdown of C&C, illustrating why it is the best OSR product on the market: http://www.rpgmusings.com/2015/03/castles-and-crusades-review/

EDIT
Another fantastic review with its strengths and weaknesses, including comparisons to Basic Fantasy and AD&D 3e: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=91636&products_id=105322

   And you can get a chance at a cheap copy by backing their 7th printing Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/676918054/castles-and-crusades-players-handbook-7

Quote from: Doc Sammy;952004Basic Fantasy is good and completely free. It is what I prefer, although Swords & Wizardry is good too.

BFRPG has a lot of nice modules too. I just used Tales from the Laughing Dragon to play(test) the game I've been writing. My players really enjoyed the module.

The question is not so much "what is the best OSR gateway game" as it is "what's drawing you to the OSR."

Curiosity (or actual nostalgia) about how X edition plays? Pick up the actual old edition if possible, or the closest clone (Swords & Wizardry White Box for core OD&D, OSRIC for AD&D1, Labyrinth Lord for B/X, etc.)

The prospect of leaner rulesets? Castles & Crusades and Blood & Treasure both do a fine job of supporting classic D&D play with a TSR/OSR disregard for WotC-era complexity.

The joys of gonzo fantasy and zany randomness? Dungeon Crawl Classics.

Appendix N-centric sword-and-sorcery? Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.

Elaborate worldbuilding and sandbox play complete with domain management and mass combat? Adventurer Conqueror King System.

I much prefer Swords & Wizardry: White Box to Basic Fantasy, but that's my OD&D preference talking.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;952416But don't take my word for it; read within to get a detailed breakdown of C&C, illustrating why it is the best OSR product on the market: http://www.rpgmusings.com/2015/03/castles-and-crusades-review/

If I had a group that really wanted AD&D or 3e-lite, I'd run Castles & Crusades for them. It is very good and the SIEGE engine - while imperfect - does run quickly and easily at the table. Its what I would have wanted from an AD&D 3e.

For Gold & Glory, the 2e retro-clone, is your answer. 2e is fast chargen, fast combat, everything additional is optional crunch to your salad. Enormous back catalog, settings, and ready to sandbox out of the gate. Toolboxing doesn't get easier or cleaner.

You're welcome.

Quote from: AmbitiousGM;952064Mostly curiosity.  I have found that what a group of gamers changes (or preserves) in a system can tell me a lot about what they value and how they play.  I want to understand the community as well as the systems.

Also, I think I'll have an easier time selling my current gaming group on a system they haven't heard of before than an older edition of D&D.  Most of them didn't experience anything TSR produced and have developed some negative associations with the brand.  I hope I'll be able to get them to try it eventually, but an intermediate step will make things easier.

What does B/X stand for?  I'm not familiar with that one.

Maybe DwD Studios BareBones Fantasy? Here's a nice review: http://chaosgrenade.com/2013/05/22/hands-on-review-barebones-fantasy/

This is what I used to introduce a friend to "D&D". It feels OSR to me, without being a D&D retro-clone. Rules are pretty straightforward without a lot of arbitrary limitations.