Nudity, gender inclusivity and racial representation in RPGs

Christopher Brady · February 23, 2017, 08:57:03 PM

Quote from: darthfozzywig;947358I think you crossed the line between "SEO hustler" and "annoying shill" back there somewhere. Waaaaay back there.

This thread just confirms it.

FWIW, neither of my transgender works colleagues consider Slanneshi daemonettes as symbols of "inclusivity".

Yeah, I'll have to agree with this.

Tod13 · February 23, 2017, 09:07:22 PM

Quote from: Nexus;947331I have to wonder what the reaction to the art would have been without the statement in the OP.

Check Pat's reply--skip the last two words if you wish. I think it is spot on.

Quote from: Pat;947286Looks like someone opened a book and drew cocks on a few monsters, because the dicks don't match -- look at the detail, the shading, and the boundary lines. The minotaur is drawn in fuzzy charcoal grays, except for the lines delineating his penis, which are stark black and sharp (the tip of the snout and horns are similar, but blend in more gradually). Same with the carnal demon, and in addition the demon is dressed in bizarre very modern-seeming fetish gear, has silicone tits, and that back leg is horrible. The nephlim is okay and the apparition is fine (though given the haggy face those are mighty perky boobs), but dicks on everything else makes it weird that the bog thing and especially the jabberwork are so obviously sexless (the poses make it hard to miss).

Overall, it's just dicks and tits, and feels juvenile not inclusive.

crkrueger · February 23, 2017, 10:18:08 PM

Uh guys, Fox already said that NONE of those pictures were the "inclusive" part. The inclusive part is showing artwork of humans of different races.

The pictures shown were some examples of the OTHER topic, nudity.

I specifically asked him if the Carnal Demon with tits and cock was supposed to be inclusive and he answered NO.

Kind of idiotic to keep harping on that specific point after that don't you think?

Rincewind1 · February 23, 2017, 10:25:57 PM

Eh, I was counting for Minotaur's penis to be at least usable as a standard WFRP 2e d10 damage weapon, given the amount of discussion in this thread about it. Also, I second the motion - give him back the "turtleneck".

Mordred Pendragon · February 23, 2017, 10:52:34 PM

I don't care whether or not there's pictures of naked people in an RPG book, all I care about is whether or not the RPG is good on its own merits.

Now, when it comes to sex and nudity, in my games I always go with a "Fade to Black" as it conveys what happens but doesn't run the risk of offending anyone or grossing them out. Now, as for nudity, I've had many PC's, both male and female end up nude, and it's almost always played for comedic effect. Why? Because I'm admittedly immature and I think naked people are funny.

I'll look into Zweihander though. Nudity and Minotaur dicks aside, it seems like a good fantasy RPG.

Snowman0147 · February 23, 2017, 11:53:29 PM

K got the free version. Holy shit it is a massive tome that is over 630 pages without art added to it. I fear the PoD cost and thank God himself that I am getting the PDF. Beyond a few complaints I find this book to be pretty good on paper.

Spinachcat · February 24, 2017, 04:36:21 AM

Zwei, the art fails. It's not daring, transgressive or original enough to shock or inspire.

Your artist made weaksauce.

All you've achieved is hurting your FLGS sales. There are many store owners who aren't going to stock "D&D with Dicks" and if you slap an "Adults Only" sticker on it, the teen boys are gonna be unimpressed how badly you dashed their hopes.

As for your pandering to the media's current trans-fetish, it makes absolutely no sense in the context of a Faux-Hammer RPG...except you think there are dollars in the SJW pockets worth the pander.

Maybe you're right, but can you pander harder than Paizo?

Quote from: Simlasa;947264The Lost And The Damned books were full of disturbing imagery and owe their coveted status to that powerful vision and not pulling punches on the presentation.

Very true.

But Zwei's art doesn't throw any punches.

Quote from: Spike;947266Otherwise it feels like that SNL skit about Cheetos.

What skit was that?

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;947267Why add a penis to the minotaur? What are we supposed to do with that extra bit of information? I came up with a few ideas:
1) show the picture to players running female characters and stoke fear in them by telling them they will have that cow dick in them if they get captured? (nope, that's sick)
2) show to your average teen player so they will start making "called shots" to hit the minotaur in the penis? (nope that's just juvenile)
3) show the picture to players to encourage them to collect bovine penises for war trophies to hang from their armor? (a miniature of that might be funny, but again nope).
4) spell component award? (I guess... if you have to)

#2 was my first thought about the Mino-dick.

#3 would assuredly happen with my players. My knuckleheads once played an all-gnome PC party of deranged mini psychopaths who after every combat, would arrange the corpses in bizarre sexual positions, preferably near a road.

Quote from: CRKrueger;947304So, edgy, juvenile, shocking, sexy, or just accurate depictions?

Ah, the AD&D spank bank!

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947341Gotta hustle to get the word out.

Very true.

On this, I mightily agree with you.

Nexus · February 24, 2017, 05:45:09 AM

Quote from: CRKrueger;947265Isn't "Accurate depiction of the subject matter" always a good enough reason?
Why must it be "compelling?"

Opening statement aside, I don't see what the big deal is. Some creatures in this world have primary and secondary sexual characteristics and don't normally cover them. This is how they look. Label the book as containing nudity so consumers can make an informed choice and go for it.

Spike · February 24, 2017, 06:28:10 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;947428What skit was that?

.

It was recent... last week maybe? Alex Baldwin (alec?) was an ad guy selling superbowl commercial ideas to cheetos, competing with another agency. Every add they described had nothing at all to do with cheetos, just various social justice issues, followed by 'Cheetos!", while the other team kept giving more traditional 'fun' commercial ideas. What flipped my memory switch was when the Cheetos people started talking about how very sympathetic they were to all their Tran's friends and co-workers... if they actually had any.

For SNL it managed to be actually slightly funny. I may have chortled, but I certainly didn't giggle...

ZWEIHÄNDER · February 24, 2017, 08:23:10 AM

Just posted this over at Kickstarter:

QuoteHey gang, we had a long, hard talk internally last night.

While we can concede that some of the artwork needs to be changed, we also want to keep the integrity of our artistic vision intact regarding nudity. Our first step is to 'desexualize' the artwork, and address the penises and breasts in a more natural way. Some may be tactfully changed, whereas others may disappear entirely. However, we intend to keep a few creatures in their 'natural' state (such as the Nephilim & Skrzzak Broodmother). We are also going to readdress the Carnal Demon (daemonette) in a way that's less fetishized and offensive to our transgendered fans. I'll post another update once we make the changes.

And, as before, if you are dissatisfied with our approach, we'll give you a refund, no questions asked. Thanks!

So naughty bits still exposed in a few rare cases, but less sexualized and more natural. Thanks everyone for your comments - constructive, supportive and otherwise!

san dee jota · February 24, 2017, 08:34:46 AM

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947310We portray characters from the perspective of real world races: Caucasian, Dravidian, Mongoloid and Negroid.

*) Dravidian is arguably more a matter of linguistics than ethnicity.
*) Mongoloid is an archaic term at best, and a slur in general, even if you're specifically talking about Mongolians.
*) Negroid... seems like a perfectly fine term to use. You should use it, a lot, in public, so that people will be clear who you're talking about.

(translation: even if you aren't a racist dipshit, using words like that guarantees that no one will believe you.)

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947310In addition, you can roughly count up an equal number of males, females and transgendered characters in the book.

So transgendered make up a third of your world's population? How'd that happen? Or is it just in art? How'd you depict that?

Wow....

"We're diverse! We have Mongloids and Negros in our game! And a whole bunch of transfolk! Like, every third person is trans!"

I think you should stop talking while you're ahead.

Anselyn · February 24, 2017, 09:38:11 AM

Quote from: Cruxador;947284Those penises don't look fully flacid and they aren't drawn with the same level of rough sketchiness that the rest of the designs are. Especially look at the smooth blending on that satyr glans (why is he even circumsized?) compared to the hair everywhere else. It makes the dick stand out like the art is saying "Look! A penis! Aren't we transgressive!". I don't think that's really appropriate for a dude just standing there with his axe. Why not make it a normal flaccid penis, the sort that (given his dense hair) should probably only barely peek out, with hair-clad scrotum framing it from behind and drooping almost as low as the shriveled foreskin typical of an unaroused individual. Alternately, go for the "mighty fucking bullcock" Black Vulmea mentioned, and make it explicitly a rape monster like the minotaur of lore, but the current half-measure is weird, it feels at best like an artistically unskilled addition, and at worst like the childish perversity that some other posters have perceived it as.

Found this on Kickstarter update 30/01/17:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]713[/ATTACH]
So - yes. It seems to have been a later addition - for whatever reason.

I agree on the circumcision. "Creatures" presumably don't have sufficient culture to go in for organised genital mutilation. Tauruses (Taurii?) seem to have sufficient society to have weapons and be trophy collecting so might have tribal traditions.

A quick look at the draft Zwei bestiary shows that the Taurus is a leader type beastman in a Gloranthan Broo tradition - so definitely more than a little "rapey".

ThatChrisGuy · February 24, 2017, 09:55:06 AM

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;947322White European and American males aren't the only folks who play tabletop RPGs. Sorry that our approach doesn't appeal to you.

Today we learn if one can indeed pat oneself on the back with both hands.

Yes, apparently.

ZWEIHÄNDER · February 24, 2017, 09:56:38 AM

Quote from: Anselyn;9474581) So - yes. It seems to have been a later addition - for whatever reason.

2) I agree on the circumcision. "Creatures" presumably don't have sufficient culture to go in for organised genital mutilation. Tauruses (Taurii?) seem to have sufficient society to have weapons and be trophy collecting so might have tribal traditions.

3) A quick look at the draft Zwei bestiary shows that the Taurus is a leader type beastman in a Gloranthan Broo tradition - so definitely more than a little "rapey".

1) Yes, it was. We have made several adjustments throughout the past five months on artwork, up to and including drawing cash and prizes on creatures where it synced up with the bestiary's entry.

2) And yep - we're on top of it now! Going to obfuscate its member, however, with tussles of hair and 'resheathing' it. Bulls are growers and not showers, after all.

3) Definitely. The influence was drawn primarily from Greek mythology (gods laying with people in the guise of beasts and half-beasts), blended with the Beastmen of the Warhammer world and given our own unique spin. For those who haven't read Early Access PDF, here's the societal description of the Grendel, followed by the listing for the Taurus creature pictured above:

Spoiler

THE GRENDEL
The actual origins of the Grendel remain the subject of much
debate. Old tales speak about the 'beastmen of the woods', a
punishment from the gods for mankind’s bloody ways – or
perhaps that they were the original inhabitants of the world,
swearing revenge upon their brethren who’d learned to walk
upright. Some even say that the Grendel grow their numbers
by cajoling mortals into drinking their mutative wine,
called ‘Dionysian Delights’. Modern scholars agree that they
are beasts who were corrupted by the Abyss and while many
Grendel follow the lurid call of chaos, they are still wholly
unnatural creatures of flesh and blood. No matter which tale
is true, they exist and have an unending hatred of humanoid
society – not because of their inadequacies, but because of
humanoids reluctance to submit to their desires.

Grendel are terrible hybrids of man and beast, taking a myriad
of grotesque, anthropomorphic forms. Though many
have traits of ungulate creatures, other bestial aspects such
as avians and reptiles have been observed. Most Grendel are
uniformly male creatures, maintaining sexual congress with
both men and women. A strange quality of the Grendel
makes them grossly desirable – many scholars deem this related
to their satyrian musk or possibly just the primal aspect
of the creatures. Entranced women are led to their mating
pen, which hold others in various stages of childbearing – it
is not an odd sight to see several scantily-clad men attending
to the gravid mothers as well. Babes born of such matings
emerge mostly of their mother’s race, although they display
bestial attributes – fur-covered bodies, perhaps small horns
or legs that end in hooves. As the child grows – and they
grow fast, reaching maturity in about three years – they become
more and more like the Grendel.

Their society is organized similar to a wolf pack, called a
‘Wild Hunt’. A Grendel’s place within the Wild Hunt is determined
by how bestial they appear – the young Broo, who
are nothing more than slightly animalistic humans, are lowest
in the hierarchy. The mighty Taurus are often the leaders
of the pack, grotesquely afflicted with satyriasis and drunken
rage. These alphas lead the Wild Hunt on raids, always have
first pick of slaves and deal out punishment to underlings.
Taurus are dethroned only through cunning violence, either
slinking off to join the rest of the pack or into the woods to
languish. The Grendel live a life of never-ending hedonism.
When not performing raids for slaves, food and wine, they
hold massive orgies and drug-addled ceremonies to their
god. The only warning signs they give on their drunken raids
are bestial braying and a terribly musky odor. Fire, death and
droppings are all that remain in their wake of destruction.
That is why families warn their children to stay away from
the woods – a Wild Hunt could sweep by in a second, scooping
up their children to lead a more barbaric life.

Despite their intense celebrations, they are truly tormented
creatures: victims to a foul blood coursing within their veins,
directed by nature to commit bestial acts. Captured Broo
often lament their lives, one torn between dual personalities
of humanity and bestiality – a life they never asked for.

TAURUS
Grendel lives are often short-lived; between accidental overdoses
of hallucinogens, exhaustion from sexual conquest or
simply dying by the sword during a raid, few Hircus see beyond
their fourth year. But there are those that survive and
conquer adversity, falling to the call of their bestial blood in
order to ascend past mere status as a beta.

These aged and powerful Grendel are known as Taurus and
they tower above their Wild Hunts in both stature and power.
The exact moment a Hircus becomes a Taurus is yet to be
pinpointed, but the youngest Taurus ever slain is said to have
been at least twenty years old – others in their second centuries
have been found still leading their Wild Hunts. Taurus
are tall and broadly muscled, reaching nearly the same
heights as an Ogre: crisscrossed with scars, bestial hoofs,
polycerate horns and tails grown massive and imposing. Few
have retained the ability to speak, only communicating in
growls, howls and brays that are interpreted by Wose. Taurus
lay upon thrones of their dead enemies, surrounding by
supplicants and slaves while fed a steady diet of food, alcohol
and drugs. They rule above all other Grendel, their worth
proved through combat and the strength of their seed.

Though a Wild Hunt may be home to several Taurus, only
one of them is favored the aforementioned luxuries of an alpha.
Any Taurus who believes they can serve the pack better
can issue a formal challenge to the current alpha, one that
culminates in tests of combat, sexual prowess and imbibing.
If the alpha is usurped, there is little shame in it – he
was proven not as capable and thus submits and joins the
throngs of the Wild Hunt once again. Motivations of the
alphas are inscrutable and varied, but there is one certainty:
that every Taurus’ desires to show humanoids the true ways
of bestiality – though these true ways involve nothing than
more than acts of rapine and slaughter. The alphas dream of a
world of pleasure populated solely by Grendel. Some will
even look towards fell gods for power, bringing their entire
Wild Hunt in line with the terrible wishes of the Abyssal
Princes, specifically the Outsider.

For folks who want to understand the full context of the artwork, you can download the Early Access PDF for free at CrowdOx: https://app.crowdox.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg

Nexus · February 24, 2017, 10:09:22 AM

Wait, there were complaints that the Carnal Demon, some sort of infernal embodiment of Lust and sexuality was too fetishized?