Quote from: Spike;941372Yeah, I made a character for Classic Traveller once back in the eighties. He died in creation.  

I STILL have never got to play the game with those rules.  Damn GM was a stickler!

So now I play MongT, so I can just start a new career missing an arm or something.









Seriously? People are complaining about...what? Too easy character creation where you don't just start over, you get saddled with some drawbacks but get to keep going?  Has ANYONE actually played a character that died in creation?  Seriously?  You spent every session just sitting there, not doing or saying anything, maybe brought a piece of raw meat to the game so eventually you'd smell like you were rotting?

Commitment!

What.the actual.Fuck.

No. I don't think that's the intent. Dying in creation means you have to start over with a new character creation attempt. Thus going for another term in a risky career with a character you've already gotten close to what you'd like to end up with is a gamble. Playing a character who died in creation is in fact nonsensical, so no, I don't think anyone has done that.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;941555Dying in creation means you have to start over with a new character creation attempt.

I always took the dead-in-gen character to be part of the backstory of whatever PCs ended up making it through... a brother or friend who died in service. Possibly under circumstances that needed to be looked into... or as part of some situation that continues to affect the PCs. If he got a long ways and accumulated wealth/equipment maybe there's an inheritance to claim? Lots of ways to make use of those dead almost-PCs.

Quote from: Simlasa;941589I always took the dead-in-gen character to be part of the backstory of whatever PCs ended up making it through... a brother or friend who died in service. Possibly under circumstances that needed to be looked into... or as part of some situation that continues to affect the PCs. If he got a long ways and accumulated wealth/equipment maybe there's an inheritance to claim? Lots of ways to make use of those dead almost-PCs.

That would be my approach if a PC dies in chragen, indeed, though in practice, while possible, it's not likely in most lifepath systems:).

I don't understand what the big deal is about dying in character generation. The way your character gets powerful in Traveller is by having a ton of experience before the start of play. The only way to mitigate everyone gaming this to get maximum cool powerzzzz is to add an element of risk (you might die!), so you are encouraged to muster out at some moderate level of prior experience. So, when you remove this risk you've, by default, jacked up the average power level of your campaign. And if you don't like the waste of time, you should get a different hobby. It takes time to actually play table top roleplaying games.

This it, primarily:

Quote from: Larsdangly;941607The way your character gets powerful in Traveller is by having a ton of experience before the start of play. The only way to mitigate everyone gaming this to get maximum cool powerzzzz is to add an element of risk (you might die!), so you are encouraged to muster out at some moderate level of prior experience. So, when you remove this risk you've, by default, jacked up the average power level of your campaign.

The character creation system makes no sense to me without acknowledging this logic. (If it makes sense to you, awesome. I'm a strange bird who doesn't get worked up about how other people use their hobby time.)

Moreover, I think the Classic Traveller character creation system does a lot of other neat tricks that I discuss in this post. (It teaches the mechanics of the game (the 2D6 bell curve, DMs for rolls based on characteristics, the honest risk of death (which is how I play) in pursuit of what you want, the basics of suboptimal choices ("Do I call it quits after one term? Or risk death?") which in many ways is baked into the implied setting, working with the hand you are dealt (choosing the career based on potential characteristic DMs.)

And let us remember as well, it doesn't happen that often. Odds are good (especially with DMs) that characters will make it alive through terms. The risk is there.

But for me, just as important, is that the roleplaying begins here. Is my guy the kind of guy who chose to leave after two terms? Got kicked out? Pushed his luck and went for a fourth or fifth term voluntarily? Wanted to get out but got drafted?

These questions, along with "Why did my guy never get promoted?" "What the hell happened during his service to make him so skilled in Blade combat?" and more, along the with answers the Player creates, add up to define character even before "play" begins. (My thesis is play begins the minute you pick up the blank character sheet, btw. Make of that what you want.)

But the biggest of these questions is the relationship the character had with a dangerous career. Why did he stay? For how long? Why? Why did he get out?

Given that all of the original Traveller characters would be characters heading off onto worlds remote from the centralized government they once served, their relationship with risk, danger, and death is part and parcel to getting a hold on them.

For all the reasons listed above, I love the Classic Traveller character system and its risk of death.

As always, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just sharing my thoughts. Please, please, go have fun with your hobby time as you see fit.

Quote from: Larsdangly;941607I don't understand what the big deal is about dying in character generation. The way your character gets powerful in Traveller is by having a ton of experience before the start of play. The only way to mitigate everyone gaming this to get maximum cool powerzzzz is to add an element of risk (you might die!), so you are encouraged to muster out at some moderate level of prior experience. So, when you remove this risk you've, by default, jacked up the average power level of your campaign. And if you don't like the waste of time, you should get a different hobby. It takes time to actually play table top roleplaying games.

That is nonsense logic. The 'Risk' of dying in character creation is only one possible way to avoid people staying in forever. Of course, Traveller has a pretty good alternate with the aging rules, which are deeply punitive in a system with four year 'terms'. But yes, anagathics... which swap one set of problems for other problems.

Of course, MongTrav still includes risk, not of death but of crippling injuries (and career derailment)... my issue isn't that the game prevents overpowered characters (in relation to...), its the occasionally derisive attitude that somehow playing with 'training wheels' or what have you by NOT dying in character creation is... soft?  

Because?

Because some people don't want to go through three or four ideas... or three or four attempts at an idea... before succeeding... before the game even starts?   The only REAL risk from dying in creation is... repeating creation.  Honestly, the chance at being maimed seems a bit MORE punitive. Now you don't start over, you start crippled.


But to go back to your 'logic' that without 'death' people will just play overpowered characters, and probably shouldn't even play roleplaying games... anyone really interested in making that super-awesome octogenarian who spent every career knocking on deaths door an is now, officially, badass? Yeah, those players will simply go back to creation over and over and over again until they pass the right number of times. Just like the D&D players who re-roll their stats (satire'd in Knights of the Dinner Table, when one guy sets a phone app dice roller to roll endlessly until it gives him all 18's), until they are 'awesome'.

Again: How exactly does 'dying' in creation prevent this?   It punishes the good along with the wicked, and does nothing to prevent the wicked from their blasphemous perfidy.


Which is why I mock it by suggesting that for it to 'work' the way the grogs like to say it does... its a 'real mans' creation, or it prevents munchkinism or whatever... you'd have to only be allowed that one attempt.  

Its no Swift, but then you aren't England.

In a way, DCC is another game with death in PC generation... but there it is the zero level 'funnel'. Make a few potential PCs and see which, if any, survive. Players have some degree of control... they can favor one and play it safe while tossing the others into harm's way. No guarantee that'll work... but I haven't seen anyone bitch about the funnel the way I have Traveller's dead proto-PCs.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;941625(My thesis is play begins the minute you pick up the blank character sheet, btw. Make of that what you want.)

I agree, but not all people approach it the same way (much to their detriment, might I humbly add:D!)

Quote from: Simlasa;941716In a way, DCC is another game with death in PC generation... but there it is the zero level 'funnel'. Make a few potential PCs and see which, if any, survive. Players have some degree of control... they can favor one and play it safe while tossing the others into harm's way. No guarantee that'll work... but I haven't seen anyone bitch about the funnel the way I have Traveller's dead proto-PCs.

Yeah, except in the DCC game I played, I lost all characters whose stats I liked better and got stuck playing the one that I expected to die first;).

Of course, the same game also proved that it's not the stats that make a memorable Warrior, because she sure was one before she even hit 2nd level!

Quote from: Larsdangly;941607I don't understand what the big deal is about dying in character generation.

Well, I didn't understand it either until I tried to just create a Belter. After having my character die fourteen different times during generation, I got fed up with what I considered to be a barrier to my fun. All I wanted was to roll up a Belter, but they kept on failing their survival roll and became corpses. So I changed how I used that rule.

Quote from: jeff37923;941741Well, I didn't understand it either until I tried to just create a Belter. After having my character die fourteen different times during generation, I got fed up with what I considered to be a barrier to my fun. All I wanted was to roll up a Belter, but they kept on failing their survival roll and became corpses. So I changed how I used that rule.

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for sharing the story. And I see your frustration.

(I'm about to type some things. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. Just typing my take on this stuff.)

To be blunt, the CT character generation system really isn't set up for the Player who wants a specific kind of character type.

As I said, the CT system is designed more about the "play the cards your dealt" in which the Player rolls characteristics and then makes decisions about how much he's willing to risk to get an soldier from the Army (if that's what he wants) even though he's got characteristics that are better suited for the Merchant Marines. The notion of point-buys and more control over character creation would be a few years off.

I see the positive and negative aspects to each kind of play and wouldn't push one or the other on players who didn't like one or the other.

Moreover, Belters have the worst odds of survival in all of the 18 careers spread across Book 1 and Supplement 4. The base chance of survival is Throw 9+ (28% chance of success), while 16 of the other careers range from a Throw of 3+ to 6+ (72% to 97% chance of success). The Scouts are the next worst compared with Belters, with a Survival Throw of 7+ (58% chance of success).

On top of that a Belter has no chance for an automatic DM +2 for the Survival roll based on a characteristic. (Every other career apart from the Noble has a DM +2 available for survival rolls based on a characteristic. This, of course, increases the odds of survival dramatically on a 2D6 bell curve.)

Instead the Belter gets a +1 DM for survival for every term served (including the first). This means that the first term of Survival is not a Throw 9+ but 8+ (42%). This is still lower odds than any other service with or without the Survival DM. (For the Book 1 careers a character with the Survival DM in play the odds are variously 97%, 92%, and 83%.)

This means that each time the Belter survives another term he gets a +1 to his survival roll. It will take him two terms of survival just to get him to the base level of a scout's survival Throw. And let's remember, the Scouts was where you sent your PC if you expected him to die!

If you can make it through the first two terms and get to the third you get a DM +3, which brings your Throw down at a 6+, and at least now you have a 72% chance of survival. Much better than than the 42% chance the character started with, but still dangerous! And certainly much worse odds than other careers.

And then there is the Reenlistment Throw -- which requires a 7+ and is the worst odds of Reenlistment Throws. (Belters share this difficult Reenlistment Throw with Pirates and the Army.) This means even if your character survives a term, he's looking at only a 58% chance of getting back in. He survived, but might not have that many terms.

Without doubt making a Belter as a PC is hard.

The only advantage is that a Belter (along with the Barbarian) begins at 14-years of age, which means if he can rack up more terms he won't suffer Aging Effects as badly.

So, several things:

The game wasn't designed for the Player to always get what he wants. You make your six characteristic rolls and then you decide where his best odds are in a system full of suboptimal choices. (A character might have better odds of survival in one career, but his odds of promotion will be lower; while his odds of promotion might be better in another career, but the odds of survival lower. The Player has to weight these DMs and odds, and then make a choice and see how it goes.)

Given that the Belter career is especially crazy for creating a surviving PC, if a player really, really wanted a belter (or the campaign was built around Belters) I would skip the character creation process and let the Player randomly roll from the forty pre-generated Belters on pages 20 and 21 of Supplement 4 -- or even let the Players simply pick from the list.

The above choice is for people who really don't want to go through the mini-game.

Here is why I would, if I wanted or needed a Belter for the game, still roll the Belter up per the rules as written:

It's tough to be a Belter in Classic Traveller. You start at the age of 14 and odds are good you'll be dead by the time you are 18 or 22. So, if I'm into the role playing aspects of the character creation mini-game this is cool because now I'm involved in the lives of these miners. I'm seeing the life they're leading chew them up. If I'm watching them die or give up (failing Reenlistment) for poor health, fear, or lack of funds, or realize this job is going to kill them and get out to find a new path for survival (adventuring amid the stars), then I'm seeing those harsh lives up close. Even the dead characters are awesome because for those brief minutes (and lets be honest, it's minutes) that I'm investing in those PCs that die I'm seeing how hard it is to survive as a Belter.

Which means that when (and its only a matter of time) one of the PCs makes it past the second term, or the third term, or even the fourth term, I know he's fucking awesome. He is a survivor, he is capable. I know how fucking competent he has to be to have made it this far. I want to play that guy. He's Tom Hardy and Sean Connery rolled into one. And there's no way I would know him that way except that I know he was the rare one who made it when so many men and women he was mining alongside didn't make it.

Again -- I'm not asking anyone to go on my ride. If this isn't your cup of tea, I get it. And, again, notice that I'm really fine for someone rolling or picking a PC off the list of pre-generated characters from Supplement 4. Why not? If someone really wants a Belter and doesn't want to deal with the frustration of dealing with all that death, why make them go through it?

But that's my take on it.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;941776But that's my take on it.

That all makes me want to go and try to roll up a Belter, right now. Crazy bastards out there dancing with the rocks. I'd watch that movie.

Quote from: Simlasa;941777That all makes me want to go and try to roll up a Belter, right now. Crazy bastards out there dancing with the rocks. I'd watch that movie.

That's awesome.

Quote from: Simlasa;941777That all makes me want to go and try to roll up a Belter, right now. Crazy bastards out there dancing with the rocks. I'd watch that movie.

There is already a TV Series

One part of death in character creation people miss is that it's how you get rid of a useless character.  If I get 222222 then I'm going belter.  If I get CCCCCC then I'm going merchant.  Indeed, scouts with their 7+ survival roll has freed me from many a bad character.  One of T4's faults is that with four skills per term, personal development could easily outstrip aging rolls.  Another option people don't use enough is the one where the referee collects dead characters to use as adversaries.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;941776Hi Jeff,

Thanks for sharing the story. And I see your frustration.

(I'm about to type some things. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. Just typing my take on this stuff.)

To be blunt, the CT character generation system really isn't set up for the Player who wants a specific kind of character type.

As I said, the CT system is designed more about the "play the cards your dealt" in which the Player rolls characteristics and then makes decisions about how much he's willing to risk to get an soldier from the Army (if that's what he wants) even though he's got characteristics that are better suited for the Merchant Marines. The notion of point-buys and more control over character creation would be a few years off.

I see the positive and negative aspects to each kind of play and wouldn't push one or the other on players who didn't like one or the other.

Moreover, Belters have the worst odds of survival in all of the 18 careers spread across Book 1 and Supplement 4. The base chance of survival is Throw 9+ (28% chance of success), while 16 of the other careers range from a Throw of 3+ to 6+ (72% to 97% chance of success). The Scouts are the next worst compared with Belters, with a Survival Throw of 7+ (58% chance of success).

On top of that a Belter has no chance for an automatic DM +2 for the Survival roll based on a characteristic. (Every other career apart from the Noble has a DM +2 available for survival rolls based on a characteristic. This, of course, increases the odds of survival dramatically on a 2D6 bell curve.)

Instead the Belter gets a +1 DM for survival for every term served (including the first). This means that the first term of Survival is not a Throw 9+ but 8+ (42%). This is still lower odds than any other service with or without the Survival DM. (For the Book 1 careers a character with the Survival DM in play the odds are variously 97%, 92%, and 83%.)

This means that each time the Belter survives another term he gets a +1 to his survival roll. It will take him two terms of survival just to get him to the base level of a scout's survival Throw. And let's remember, the Scouts was where you sent your PC if you expected him to die!

If you can make it through the first two terms and get to the third you get a DM +3, which brings your Throw down at a 6+, and at least now you have a 72% chance of survival. Much better than than the 42% chance the character started with, but still dangerous! And certainly much worse odds than other careers.

And then there is the Reenlistment Throw -- which requires a 7+ and is the worst odds of Reenlistment Throws. (Belters share this difficult Reenlistment Throw with Pirates and the Army.) This means even if your character survives a term, he's looking at only a 58% chance of getting back in. He survived, but might not have that many terms.

Without doubt making a Belter as a PC is hard.

The only advantage is that a Belter (along with the Barbarian) begins at 14-years of age, which means if he can rack up more terms he won't suffer Aging Effects as badly.

So, several things:

The game wasn't designed for the Player to always get what he wants. You make your six characteristic rolls and then you decide where his best odds are in a system full of suboptimal choices. (A character might have better odds of survival in one career, but his odds of promotion will be lower; while his odds of promotion might be better in another career, but the odds of survival lower. The Player has to weight these DMs and odds, and then make a choice and see how it goes.)

Given that the Belter career is especially crazy for creating a surviving PC, if a player really, really wanted a belter (or the campaign was built around Belters) I would skip the character creation process and let the Player randomly roll from the forty pre-generated Belters on pages 20 and 21 of Supplement 4 -- or even let the Players simply pick from the list.

The above choice is for people who really don't want to go through the mini-game.

Here is why I would, if I wanted or needed a Belter for the game, still roll the Belter up per the rules as written:

It's tough to be a Belter in Classic Traveller. You start at the age of 14 and odds are good you'll be dead by the time you are 18 or 22. So, if I'm into the role playing aspects of the character creation mini-game this is cool because now I'm involved in the lives of these miners. I'm seeing the life they're leading chew them up. If I'm watching them die or give up (failing Reenlistment) for poor health, fear, or lack of funds, or realize this job is going to kill them and get out to find a new path for survival (adventuring amid the stars), then I'm seeing those harsh lives up close. Even the dead characters are awesome because for those brief minutes (and lets be honest, it's minutes) that I'm investing in those PCs that die I'm seeing how hard it is to survive as a Belter.

Which means that when (and its only a matter of time) one of the PCs makes it past the second term, or the third term, or even the fourth term, I know he's fucking awesome. He is a survivor, he is capable. I know how fucking competent he has to be to have made it this far. I want to play that guy. He's Tom Hardy and Sean Connery rolled into one. And there's no way I would know him that way except that I know he was the rare one who made it when so many men and women he was mining alongside didn't make it.

Again -- I'm not asking anyone to go on my ride. If this isn't your cup of tea, I get it. And, again, notice that I'm really fine for someone rolling or picking a PC off the list of pre-generated characters from Supplement 4. Why not? If someone really wants a Belter and doesn't want to deal with the frustration of dealing with all that death, why make them go through it?

But that's my take on it.

And now I want to go and roll up a CT Belter. I think I'm going to name him Rig, and give him free Unarmed Combat:p.

Or rather, that's what I'm going to do with the one that survives:D!