Quote from: The_Shadow;941009There's always been space for all kinds in RPGs. The weak-minded and morally lax, the milquetoasts and throat-clearers, have their D&D, while intelligent and virile men have Runequest. Nothing wrong with this natural division.

* punches you in the nuts so hard your brains squirt out your ears *

lol

The oldest rivalries are always the deepest.

I liked many things about Runequest but Glorantha and the Magic System were never among them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941008I think a lot of it stemmed from the 1976 Origins D&D tourney drawing 250 people and no other event drew more than a dozen to 20, and similar scenes elsewhere.

Which was mirrored nicely by MTG tournaments at conventions in the 90s...

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;941071Which was mirrored nicely by MTG tournaments at conventions in the 90s...

Not really. MTG drew a different sort of player and still does. Theres very little crossover between. Too different animals to compare. What Magic did though was draw players from other board games AND wargames. The money sink that is any CCG siphoned funds form other board game endeavors. And when the CCG bubble burst, it burst hard.

Quote from: Omega;941081Not really. MTG drew a different sort of player and still does. Theres very little crossover between. Too different animals to compare. What Magic did though was draw players from other board games AND wargames. The money sink that is any CCG siphoned funds form other board game endeavors. And when the CCG bubble burst, it burst hard.

Can't speak for anyone else but down here, M:tG all but killed RPGs. The tables at the local venues were swarmed by M:tG players, most of whom were familiar faces from the same tables, as RPG players a few months prior. I suspect it was the same etiology as the whole MMO thing: far easier to set up a game + network externalities.

Quote from: Omega;941081Not really. MTG drew a different sort of player and still does. Theres very little crossover between. Too different animals to compare. What Magic did though was draw players from other board games AND wargames. The money sink that is any CCG siphoned funds form other board game endeavors. And when the CCG bubble burst, it burst hard.

Quote from: The Butcher;941100Can't speak for anyone else but down here, M:tG all but killed RPGs. The tables at the local venues were swarmed by M:tG players, most of whom were familiar faces from the same tables, as RPG players a few months prior. I suspect it was the same etiology as the whole MMO thing: far easier to set up a game + network externalities.

Yeah I don't know where Omega was living, but Magic put a massive hurtin' on RPGs due to ease of play.  You get the deck, you sit down you play, boom done.  No muss, no fuss, no other human beings you have to interact with other than in a boardgame opposition way, and if you actually like talking to people, they're all over the place but you don't have to convince them that kicking in the front door isn't a way to avoid TPKs.  

It's exactly like how the boardgame resurgence is hurting RPGs today, especially among a crowd that either due to age or the modern internet has much less free time they want to file under "social gaming", except to a much larger degree, mainly due to the extremely low cost of entry (the real cost was completely hidden of course because any Collectible Game by definition is Pay to Win).

Quote from: The Butcher;941100Can't speak for anyone else but down here, M:tG all but killed RPGs. The tables at the local venues were swarmed by M:tG players, most of whom were familiar faces from the same tables, as RPG players a few months prior. I suspect it was the same etiology as the whole MMO thing: far easier to set up a game + network externalities.

Its still like a weird parallel universe to me, people playing RPGs in public or at a store with strangers.

Hmm I've never really cared much what the fad level was. It only takes a handful of good players for a good game which can last for years. The masses of people who get into games I don't want to play, well, I'm glad they have something else to play. ;-)

I know people who say they "left TTRPGs for MMOs," but in every case that I personally know the person's interest in TTRPGs had already dwindled.  I think a lot of people are simply neophilic. I personally can't imagine how either MMOs or CCGs would come anywhere close to filling the niche of a TTRPG for me, unless the niche is "vaguely gamelike thing you do in a social setting", which is so broad as to be useless.

I played City of Heroes and World of Warcraft a bit.  Even got to 50th level in WoW after five years.  Yes, I know people who could do 50 levels in a week.  I have a job, a family, hobbies, and a life.  Anyhow, I always found the format incredibly limiting and frustrating.  Nothing you do has any lasting effect, nothing, not even that new bauble, a level or two now you'll have another.

I think the appeal of a lot of computer games comes from the little rewards you get every ten to fifteen minutes.  There's a sense of accomplishment but none of it will matter a week from now, you'll have move on to bigger and better things because bigger numbers are better.  There was a Simpsons where there's a teacher's strike and Lisa is begging to be graded like a crack whore begging for a hit.  It's like that, I think.

It's also important to remember that table top rpg's were going through a really shitty period just as computer games made a leap forward in quality and complexity, and simultaneously the trading card games appeared on the scene. I never got into either of the latter two hobbies, but I could see at the time that they were where the innovation and action was. This was ca. 1995, in the last death throes of 2E, when game stores were filled to over flowing with super shitty splat books. D&D still sucked most of the oxygen out of the room, but wasn't delivering in any way as a game system.

Quote from: David Johansen;941126I think the appeal of a lot of computer games comes from the little rewards you get every ten to fifteen minutes.  There's a sense of accomplishment but none of it will matter a week from now, you'll have move on to bigger and better things because bigger numbers are better.  There was a Simpsons where there's a teacher's strike and Lisa is begging to be graded like a crack whore begging for a hit.  It's like that, I think.

Oh, absolutely!  I've spent a fair bit of time over the years creating all manner of half-finished computer games, so I've read a lot of articles on designing them, including many specifically on the psychology of reward scheduling and how to use it to make your game as addictive as possible.  It's backed by a substantial body of formal psychological research and a vastly larger body of empirical data derived from game companies' experiences.  When you start digging into it, it's a little disturbing to see just how carefully crafted every aspect of the MMO experience is, in order to maximize "engagement".  But, then, I suppose that's no different than any other form of marketing these days...

Basic Skinnerian conditioning.  Our brains find small, frequent, irregular reinforcements to be almost irresistable.

Quote from: nDervish;941160When you start digging into it, it's a little disturbing to see just how carefully crafted every aspect of the MMO experience is, in order to maximize "engagement".

And that "knowledge" has become the basis of "gamification" being used in many other arenas. It's deeply disturbing.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;941112Its still like a weird parallel universe to me, people playing RPGs in public or at a store with strangers.

How do you build your home groups?

Most groups I've known from the past two decades originated because the core players met at either a convention or FLGS and then brought in their friends. I've been part of four groups build from RPGA players who wanted to play something not-D&D in a home setting as they got their D&D fix via the FLGS events and I've been the non-RPGA friend of a friend most of the time. My last Gamma World campaign started with two guys at a Living Forgotten Realms event talking about GW and being bummed there was no living campaign for it when one brought up my name as a DM and the other said his friends would love to play.

And that's been normal for me since the early days. Back in middle school, the FLGS had no play area, just retail. But it was the place where you could meet other gamers from other local schools and cross pollinate groups, especially as most FLGS back then had tack boards on the wall where people posted about looking for players or DMs.