Quote from: rway218;937408I have three quick questions, that may help younger developers in the future:

What is the one thing you DONT want in a new Game System?

System bashing.  It's tawdry and unprofessional.

Quote from: rway218;937408What keeps you from accepting a new game or system?

Very little, I'm always willing to try new things.  Bad writing, unappealing art (if especially if there's a 'tone' or built in setting) and incomplete explanations are pretty much it.

Quote from: rway218;937408What would you LOVE to see from a newer designer?

An open mind, the willingness to experiment and the humility to accept that the game may not be for everyone, but still trying to make it as fun as possible.

Quote from: rway218;937408Answer all or any...  go...

Hopefully, this is useful for you.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938408How can this place be both the place of "Rulings not Rules", "Building your own" and "OSR4life" and also be the place that has no time for any variations on existing themes?

Because we are vast and contain multitudes.

And I for one have never had any interest in the OSR anyways.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;938428Bad writing, unappealing art (if especially if there's a 'tone' or built in setting) and incomplete explanations are pretty much it.

That's a good point that a lot of new RPGs skimp on.  (not surprisingly - good art is expensive)  The way I figure it, people are hooked in by the art/layout, they keep looking if they like the story/fluff/vibe, and they stick around if they like the mechanics.  Basically, of those 3, the art is the most important to bring people in, while the mechanics are most important to get people to be long-term customers (recruiting others etc.), but nobody is going to get to that point if they aren't hooked in the first place.

Besides the prettiness factor, if I see two RPGs, one of which has a bunch of awesome artwork while the other looks like it was drawn with colored pencils in high school art class, I'm going to assume that the former is probably better polished all around since they invested so much in the look, it's likely that they invested time in the system.  (Certainly not true 100% of the time - but more often that not.)  I might not even bother reading the summary for the latter, since there are a heck of a lot of shoestring RPGs clamoring for my attention.

A good cover is essential. If any money is spent on art, it should go there - it basically will 9 out of ten times mean the difference between someone even bothering to pull a book off a shelf at a store  to peruse it.

Inside, generally speaking, no art is preferable to bad art. But good art can really enhance a game.

And art isnt as expensive as it used to be with the internet. Its generally not that hard to find an amateur who will do some decent liner art for a game for a pittance (speaking from experience).

Also, its worth remembering that there are 2000+ years of human history in art that is copyright free. While clip-art can induce groans, used cleverly it can be as good or even better than modern art.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;938454Also, its worth remembering that there are 2000+ years of human history in art that is copyright free. While clip-art can induce groans, used cleverly it can be as good or even better than modern art.

True - though that depends upon the RPG.  An Arthurian RPG would have free at coming out of their ears, especially if they're going for an old-school exaggerated chivalry vibe.  (basically chivalry through the Victorian rose tinted lens)  I know that I was surprised that Pendragon didn't take advantage of it.

A sci-fi RPG with unique aliens is mostly out of luck.  While art is cheap relative to what it once was - a cover, 6-10 unique aliens, a half dozen classes (iconic for each), space ships, and mecha; all together they'd run a new RPG at least a couple grand, and probably considerably more.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938411That's just because you need a toilet seat you can read on without your feet going numb.

Such a good investment!!

I want one of those Japanese heated seats!

Quote from: CRKrueger;938408I mean really, who here besides Gronan is still playing the first RPG they ever played?

Me?

And probably many others. Even the ones who got into RPGs more recently. I won't be surprised that people who got into RPGs via 3e are now playing 3e in some form, probably 3.5 or Crapfinder.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;938455True - though that depends upon the RPG.  An Arthurian RPG would have free at coming out of their ears, especially if they're going for an old-school exaggerated chivalry vibe.  (basically chivalry through the Victorian rose tinted lens)  I know that I was surprised that Pendragon didn't take advantage of it.

A sci-fi RPG with unique aliens is mostly out of luck.  While art is cheap relative to what it once was - a cover, 6-10 unique aliens, a half dozen classes (iconic for each), space ships, and mecha; all together they'd run a new RPG at least a couple grand, and probably considerably more.

Thats true, but a sci-fi game does have the advantage that NASA has made their entire archive of photos OF SPAAAAAACE...open to public use.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938408I think maybe the "Don't give me anything I already have." crowd is protesting a bit too much, like maybe 350 times more than necessary.

Where this comes from - for me - is that too often people design games without reading or playing a variety of RPGs. I swear half the new systems I see are a recipe of 'X system with a little Y thrown in', because that's how the designer has been playing X system for years, anyway, and they don't realise that the really cool Y element they've 'innovated' has been done repeatedly in other systems, they just don't have a broad enough base of experience to know.

'Don't give me anything I already have' - to me - means "Don't design a game that already exists all over again. Design a new game."

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;938512'Don't give me anything I already have' - to me - means "Don't design a game that already exists all over again. Design a new game."

Or, "don't sell me your houserules to system X as a whole new game."

Quote from: CRKrueger;938408I think maybe the "Don't give me anything I already have." crowd is protesting a bit too much, like maybe 350 times more than necessary.

I took it as "what will it take get you to play a new game?" Which is a way harder sell than "Buy a new game".

Getting me to buy a new game is surprisingly/embarrassingly easy.

Quote from: rway218;937408I have three quick questions, that may help younger developers in the future:

What is the one thing you DONT want in a new Game System?

What keeps you from accepting a new game or system?

What would you LOVE to see from a newer designer?

Answer all or any...  go...

1.  I absolutely hate choosing hindrances in games to get build points.  Especially if the hindrances are actually just personality traits.  (Looking at you, Savage Worlds.)

2.  Is learning to play this game more work than simply kit-bashing some version of D&D into shape?  If so, I will not be very enthusiastic.

3.  I would like a straightforward skill-based game with no special edges/feats/whatever special abilities are called.  Just distribute your skills and adventure, no gimmicks involved.

Quote from: robiswrong;938558Or, "don't sell me your houserules to system X as a whole new game."

Yes, exactly.

I don't mean to be down on homebrews - I do them all the time. Heck, my signature is littered with them. But still.

//Panjumanju

One problem with all the retread games floating around is a simple consequence of how effortless it is to produce and distribute documents now. Pretty much everyone I knew in the 70's and 80's had their own group-specific house rules for D&D and most other games, and they were often extensive. I don't think many people thought of them as new games, and they mostly existed as collections of spiral notebook paper stuffed in a binder. But in terms of content they contained pretty much everything people rattle on about in the endless threads about modern OSR variants. The material is all fine, but I dislike the fact that all the official 'branding' of these sets of house rules has fragmented the hobby, making a lot of dueling banjos that are basically playing hte same tune at slightly different tempos. It would be better if we were publishing dungeons, spell books, etc. that were all aimed at a few common rules sets, and handle our house rule tweaks on a side channel.

Quote from: Piestrio;938596I took it as "what will it take get you to play a new game?" Which is a way harder sell than "Buy a new game".

Getting me to buy a new game is surprisingly/embarrassingly easy.

Funny, I'm just the opposite.  I'll sit down and play anything once.  Getting me to BUY takes a major act of God.  And good luck getting me to run something new.

Quote from: CRKrueger;938408...
I mean really, who here besides Gronan is still playing the first RPG they ever played?
Even for the people who are still playing some flavor of D&D, or Traveller, or RuneQuest, or TFT...that's not the first flavor of D&D, Traveller, RuneQuest or TFT you started with, I'm thinking (Gronan, Skarg and maybe two others excepted).  You added stuff, and some of that stuff came from other published versions of the House Systems of TSR, GDW, Chaosium or SJG, or some licensed or OGL version of same.  It was useful to you, even if you didn't take it whole cloth. ...

Hehe! You're psychic! Actually, I am currently playing TFT full system without houserules, though I started with just basic Melee. But it's an exception for me, and I am noticing the many things TFT doesn't have that GURPS does. You're right too that I don't just play GURPS, in fact I find all editions of it to want many optional rules and house rules which I am constantly thinking of how to improve on. And though I was one of the people who said I pretty much stick with GURPS, I am still looking for new rules and systems, even if I mainly tend to just see if there's anything interesting and if I can use any bits of it for something else.

So ya, score one critical hit for CRKrueger!