One of the pitfalls of realistic damage is that it can potentially go a bit too far. Too much detail or rolling. I cant think of any that go overboard. Though there must be some out there that have? (RoleMaster?)

Albedo has a realistic combat system and gets the job done in two or three rolls. I believe a few others do it in about 4-5. To me at least past 4 and it starts to feel a little tedious every round.

Last year I was playtesting a hardcore spy RPG where you roll 1D6 for damage and 6+ = you're dead. It's all about being very careful to avoid fights unless necessary. For PCs, I use the "you only live twice" rule where once per session, they can ignore a kill shot. So far, the players have enjoyed the tension and the fact that guns kill PCs, but lethality like that really limits the audience. When we playtested my other game with near zero combat realism, I got more feedback the game was "fun" by the same players even though they preferred the hardcore spy game overall.

Quote from: David Johansen;937197In earlier editions, a small shield or leather torso armor makes your dodge 7 which goes up to ten.  A medium shield and mail brings your dodge up to 11 and Conan has the Strength needed to remain unencumbered doing so even with his bastard sword in one hand.

I know the flat +3 in fourth edition defenses can seem a bit high but it's less stackable than the first to third edition Passive Defense.

That being said, if you want to speed up GURPS 4e and make it deadlier, stripping that +3 is a good way to do it and probably more realistic.

Personally, I wish they'd made the all out attack with missile weapons +4 instead of +1 as that would cancel out the punitive range penalties and no dodge against bullets is much more realistic than any dodge at all.  It makes getting under cover and shooting from cover the winning strategies they should be.

The GURPS I run has more 3e than 4e in it (and many house rules), and stacking PD from armor was an early target of the house rules, because you're right. The +3 in 4e seems to me an attempt to remove the stacking while retaining the basic balance, but yeah, it messes a bit with the typical balance in situations I tend to run, because many people end up with higher dodges than they used to have.

(Note though that adding heavy leather and a shield can also drop your dodge a point or two due to encumbrance, and is not likely to end up helping much or at all against a heavy crossbow since it'll likely overpenetrate (blowthrough limit) anyway.)

However, since I always also use a map, causing someone, especially a strong foe, to hit the dirt to get a +3 to dodge is often a very valuable result, since it takes the foe out of combat for a while and makes him immobile and vulnerable in several ways.

And of course, it's all not the point of this tangent of the thread, which is that there is still a decent chance of being hit and seriously injured, maimed or killed by one crossbow bolt, where that is not true in a system where a person may have several times as many hitpoints as a crossbow can possibly do in combat (unless the GM decides to ignore the hitpoint system and rule that you are drilled, but then that's not really the hitpoint system, that's the GM inventing a way of handling it that doesn't use the hitpoint system).

The way you cancel out range penalties is to aim with a weapon that has an Acc modifier. Otherwise you're trying to fire as soon as the weapon can be fired, which probably should be iffy unless you have great skill.

As for house rules, try having the dodge bonuses take into account encumbrance and/or the maneuver being used by the target. +3 may be fine for someone using Move or All Out Defense without encumbrance, but could be lowered by encumbrance and other maneuvers.

I think dodge makes decent sense against ranged attacks (even bullets) for people who are being evasive. Without dodge, someone with enough skill or accuracy can be very very sure to hit, more than reality seems to back up in situations where the target is moving unpredictably. When the target is holding still, then yes, no dodge. In a shootout between people at range sheltering behind cover, unless they see someone about to shoot at them and elect to move out of their own position, then there would be no dodge.

And yes, Conan in GURPS is very fast and powerful. I don't have a Conan book handy but it seems to me his dodge was around 9 before PD/encumbrance, but of course he still really doesn't want to risk that if he doesn't have to, so as with all characters, he's much more formidable if he moves carefully (e.g. moving so there are foes and obstacles between him and people trying to shoot him, whenever possible).

Conan also has Luck which gives a reroll once an hour.  Which is good.

The thing is that realistic combat hit ratios would be very unpopular with most players.  Dodge lets them have their shooting range level accuracy while reducing the actual hit ratio and survivability a bit.

But yeah, 4e makes it a bit easier to hit with ranged weapons as there's no snap shot rule (-4 if you don't aim and effective skill is below n)  But it also did away with the +4 to hit a stationary target.  It still, sort of exists in the form of situational modifiers but it's not written into the rules.

All told GURPS 4e is a little more cinematic but still harsh compared to many systems.  I think post Heroes Unlimited Palladium is still a worst offender with its SDC and HP totals.  AC in D&D is actually a pretty big factor.  Even at tenth level, AC 7 Conan in a loin cloth is a lot more vulnerable than AC 2 Conan in chainmail with a shield.

Quote from: David Johansen;937259
The thing is that realistic combat hit ratios would be very unpopular with most players.

I agree. If I played a game with WWI hit averages (1 hit per 10,000 rounds fired*), I'd be a bit annoyed too.

*disclaimer: random statistic found by Googling and taking number from results page without actually clicking any links. Point being, real-life hit statistics are pretty low. Police jurisdictions reveal officer hit percentages ranging from 10% to 30%--maybe cops are stuck at level 1?

Quote from: Tod13;937278I agree. If I played a game with WWI hit averages (1 hit per 10,000 rounds fired*), I'd be a bit annoyed too.

*disclaimer: random statistic found by Googling and taking number from results page without actually clicking any links. Point being, real-life hit statistics are pretty low. Police jurisdictions reveal officer hit percentages ranging from 10% to 30%--maybe cops are stuck at level 1?

That's what I meant about the to-hit and dodge numbers making sense.

Anyone remember Trenchfoot? The World War I game where the one of the most common things your men do is slip and fall down in the mud?

Sounds good for a war game:).

Quote from: Skarg;937283That's what I meant about the to-hit and dodge numbers making sense.

Anyone remember Trenchfoot? The World War I game where the one of the most common things your men do is slip and fall down in the mud?

Hahah yeah, that one is still on my shelf. Think I still have pages of written orders for attackers, all of which would come to naught once the slip-n-slide fun began.

Level titties... even bosoms? Balanced busts? :confused: What is the most colorful descriptor? Which rolls off the tongue best?

Quote from: Tod13;937278I agree. If I played a game with WWI hit averages (1 hit per 10,000 rounds fired*), I'd be a bit annoyed too.

*disclaimer: random statistic found by Googling and taking number from results page without actually clicking any links. Point being, real-life hit statistics are pretty low. Police jurisdictions reveal officer hit percentages ranging from 10% to 30%--maybe cops are stuck at level 1?

WWI (and later wars) has a lot of suppression fire, so I'd only use 1:10000 stats if the mechanics of the game reflected that, but it is still fun to think about. A realistic WWI RPG would be horribly depressing ("You've been shot going over the line. roll 3d6 for how many hours you spend twitching a Spandau ballet on the barbed wire before dying. Now roll up a character for Wraith: the Great War").

The 10-30% for cops is fairly well emulated in GURPS (my knowledge is still back in 3e), Hero Systems (knowledge 4th-6th ed.) and some other games in that you start with a reasonable 8-14 or less on 3d6 guns check, but almost immediately start racking up penalties for range, lighting, opponent cover, whether you are set and aiming or just pulling off a snapshot, etc.

Quote from: Opaopajr;937637Level titties... even bosoms? Balanced busts? :confused: What is the most colorful descriptor? Which rolls off the tongue best?

I'm partial to level titties, because advancing in levels should totally give you bigger breasts if you so desired:D!

That would explain all the fantasy armor.  It fit when I bought it at first level!

I wonder if you could adapt some convoluted table system for damage onto a spreadsheet and then maybe output it to a PDF with drop downs? I have seen something similar used for character creation in either Mutants and Masterminds/Marvel Heroic though the principle should be the same. The nice thing about using a PDF in this way is that you would always get the same result depending on what data was entered, in case a player wanted to dispute it.

Quote from: David Johansen;937683That would explain all the fantasy armor.  It fit when I bought it at first level!

Combining the problems with art and systems to resolve them both? I can only commend that approach;)!

Also, now I want to run a game with level titties:D!