Quote from: Black Vulmea;937387Oh, Nexus, please.

Grover repeatedly frames his posts with false dichotomies misrepresenting or distorting differing opinions. Here're two quick examples.

Says the man thatr uses internet images and even claimed a troll image from the old David The Gnome stories to make a 'point' about what he is, which frankly, other than spewing some hard core One True Wayism that I'm sure makes Gronan blush in pleasure, I often have no idea what point you're making other than to well, troll people.

You may even be right about Grove, but at this point, you have less credibility than he does.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;937388Says the man thatr uses internet images and even claimed a troll image from the old David The Gnome stories to make a 'point' about what he is, which frankly, other than spewing some hard core One True Wayism that I'm sure makes Gronan blush in pleasure, I often have no idea what point you're making other than to well, troll people.

You may even be right about Grove, but at this point, you have less credibility than he does.

Yeah and its not like he's the only one. Personally,  I don't think Grove is a Troll of any sort but maybe naive about the board community on the rpgsite.

Quote from: Nexus;937390Yeah and its not like he's the only one. Personally,  I don't think Grove is a Troll of any sort but maybe naive about the board community on the rpgsite.

I expected a diverse group as found in other forums. Had I known there was such a leaning toward styles counter to my own I may have thought twice about bringing it up.

Quote from: Old One Eye;937228My notes for the market would be something like:

Leather worker:  trying to get coalition of merchants to fight thieves guild extortion
Apple vendor:  front for thieves guild.
Baker:  thieves guild often exhorts into baking poisonous pies

I suggest spending prep on content for the players to interact with and let flavor text be less than perfect at the table.

Depends on a lot of things.  There are small villages with little fairs all over the place, and many of them are full of perfectly ordinary stuff.

Now, if you've gone to the Champagne Fair, that's different.  But some stuff is just stuff.  Not every plowhorse is Beucephalus in disguise.

Quote from: CRKrueger;937285That's one of the things about the other morning description, it's a little off as well.  I think the disconnect is that Grove just comes up with these and they're not meant to give any real information.

That's a big part of it.  In another thread he said he wants "The knight is riding an Andalusian" even though he has no idea what an Andalusian is.  That means I could say "He's riding an Omaneska, a breed of fast horse derived from the Arabian and bred in Oman."

Even though it's total bullshit that I just pulled out of my ass this very second.  There is no such thing.  To somebody with my deep seated horror of using words incorrectly, the notion of doing that is like the dentist office scene in Marathon Man.

Also, over the 44 years and hundreds of people I've gamed with, I've found the old adage "leave 'em wanting more" is the best advice.  Make the descriptions concise and if the players want more, they'll ask.

Quote from: Ashakyre;937307You walk into a thread. It's a shit show.

Surveying the scene from top to bottom you observe posters arguing with each other trivially pointless details. You try to make sense of their ramblings, but your eyes glaze over with boredom. It seems the argument has been going on for quite some time, but you can no longer tell what they're talking about. At moments it seems the posters are polite with each other, almost cordial, but all that does is set up a new round of bickering instead of letting the discussion die a natural death.

There doesn't seem to be anything of value here, but you find it hard to pull yourself away, almost like a mysterious force is drawing you into the abyss...

"I post archers to cover all the exits and set the thread on fire."

Quote from: rgrove0172;937256This thread for example - most, if not all, of my players have been avid readers of fiction and tend to dig into books related to the game we are about to embark on or are already enjoying. When we come to the table we more or less expect a similar experience to what we have been reading, complete with overly used adjectives and tediously descriptive prose.

All of my players over 44 years have been avid readers of fiction.

However, we avoid authors who use "overly used adjectives and tediously descriptive prose."  We prefer authors who can actually write.

"Writing" is not the same as "overwriting."

Quote from: Black Vulmea;937352Yes, if "mundane" is being a gambler and gunfighter in 1874 New Mexico, or a swashbuckling actor in 1626 Marseille, or captain of an interstellar free trader in Ley Sector in 1103 of the Third Imperium.

Which isn't really very mundane at all, when you think about it.

For someone who prides himself on his prose, Grover, you sure have a way of putting your foot in your mouth a lot.

Ho hum, here's the mundane Jedi knight leaping 40 mundane feet across a mundane chasm in a mundane Trade Federation cruiser to ignite his mundane lightsaber and lay into some mundane battle droids...

And after all this time, he still uses that kind of terminology, and still wonders why people still take the piss out of him in fifty five gallon drums.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937398Now, if you've gone to the Champagne Fair, that's different.

That's really neat. I just spent the last 15 minutes reading up on that, which is a piece of history I was not aware of. There is some good inspiration there that can be included in a fantasy economy. It's interesting how the Black Death and end of the Medieval Warm Period may have affected it's decline. I hadn't considered a plague or pandemic before. That would be awesome in a low magic setting.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;937383Okay, but you also know your audience. Its very clear by now that you prefer a narrative approach to gaming. I'm not going to say there's anything wrong with that, but its basically counter to this board's character. The posters responding to you here, on the whole, are not interested in (or in some cases generally antagonistic towards) this style of play. So is it that you actually want to give up your style of GMing and try an immersive/"world in motion" approach? Because I'm not seeing that as entirely likely. It runs counter to your answers to the questions I asked in the previous thread, and in general you seem to regard advice that comes from the WIM PoV as a burden. I'm not saying several of the responses your getting aren't hostile, but I also cannot see you not realizing that you are courting that at this point. You know, frex, Vulmea and Gronan's playstyles and what little regard they hold for other playstyles (granted, largely exaggerated no doubt for comedic effect), but if you arent intent on adopting their approach, why are you conversing with them at all? And to get back to knowing your audience, you must understand, regardless of the disparate levels of animosity, Vulmea and Gronan's tastes in regards to gaming are indicative of the general population of therpgsite as a whole. I wouldn't bother starting a thread on this site about playing Sorensen's The Farm, anymore than I'd bother going to the 9th Age forums to start a conversation on the finer points of playing Age of Sigmar unless I was just trolling, (which to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't put it past me - I enjoy a good game of Devil's Advocate as much as any 4chantard).

So specifically in regards to this forum, you could phrase your question-based threads to specifically court advice on the narrative style of GMing you prefer,  you could couch them in terms that specifically engenders advice in regards to how to most effectively approach things from a "World-in-Motion" perspective, but as it is, it seems like you don't know what you want

Another thing you have GOT to pay attention to is BV's point in post 90; that despite assertions to the contrary, Rgrove starts using very loaded language at or near the beginning of every one of these threads.  There is a STRONG undercurrent of "I am oh so NARTISTIC compared to you barbarians," for example his yodel about "my players and I are all avid readers of fiction," which 99 out of 100 random people would read as an assertion of difference... in other words, "the rest of you are not."  Nobody says "My players and I are all oxygen breathing carbon based life forms."

Crom's hairy nutsack, BV has quoted Dumas in some of his posts here, people quote Shakespeare, Howard, Lieber, Tolkien, Hemingway... saying "my players and I are all avid readers of fiction" at BEST rates "Along with the entire rest of this fucking forum, Cupcake."  But after enough examples of this sort of thing, one stops employing the benefit of the doubt.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937392I expected a diverse group as found in other forums. Had I known there was such a leaning toward styles counter to my own I may have thought twice about bringing it up.

Part of the problem was your first post here which started with a massive misunderstanding by members here, including myself. And once some of us caught on we noted as much that as long as the players are on board the style you use is perfectly fine. But later posts have been either attempts to validate your style with some of the wonkiest cherry picking of "facts" that it just begs to be dissected. Or the aforementioned backhanding which undermines your valid points and lessens the chance anyones going to answer civilly.

If youd started this thread alone without the baiting it might not have devolved so fast. Sure a few would still have objected intensely. But probably not with as much vitrol (aside from the resident trolls).

As long as your players want that sort of intense detail and storytelling style rather than RPG style then rock on.

Do you go into as much detail with the NPCs? I assume yes? Every NPC? Or just the ones the players focus on?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937399Also, over the 44 years and hundreds of people I've gamed with, I've found the old adage "leave 'em wanting more" is the best advice.  Make the descriptions concise and if the players want more, they'll ask.

Yes. The Q&A style I mentioned before.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;937387It's why I think Grover is a troll intent on creating shitstorms, not a gamer interested in discussion.

Maybe he's the Big Purple's Troll Master, but I'm not getting that vibe.

Either way, his threads have sparked some good discussions so I'm hoping he sticks around.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937398Depends on a lot of things.  There are small villages with little fairs all over the place, and many of them are full of perfectly ordinary stuff.

Now, if you've gone to the Champagne Fair, that's different.  But some stuff is just stuff.  Not every plowhorse is Beucephalus in disguise.

True, but if you're taking the time to make me notice said plowhorse, by, say, having it juggle or scream how it has the best wares, then I feel like you want me to notice it, so I might be more apt to check it out.

Grove does have a style one could call "passive aggressive strawmanning" when challenged.  It's in various degrees of subtlety, but the construct runs something like this...(exaggerated for effect).

"Well gee willickers, I always thought the role of the GM was to be something other than a knuckle dragging ape.  My apologies if that isn't what's done these days."

He doesn't usually defend himself without misrepresenting the opposing argument as well as tossing a little jab in there for good measure and giving himself plausible deniability.  It's very...Victorian.