"Waah waah waah the rules say I have 45 hit points boo hoo."

Tough shit.  Act like a moron, die like a moron.

As referee, the rules are my servant, not my master.  And I always have plenty of players so don't pull your whiny ass "viking hat" bullshit on me.

Of course, I don't play with imbeciles or crybabies, and that prevents an amazing number of problems.

(Okay, I'll admit that as referee, I would tell the player "At this range if he fires he WILL kill you, hit points be damned."  But after I've said that, anybody who says "I have 45 HP, I can take it!" deserves to die.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936849"Waah waah waah the rules say I have 45 hit points boo hoo."

Tough shit.  Act like a moron, die like a moron.

As referee, the rules are my servant, not my master.  And I always have plenty of players so don't pull your whiny ass "viking hat" bullshit on me.

Of course, I don't play with imbeciles or crybabies, and that prevents an amazing number of problems.

(Okay, I'll admit that as referee, I would tell the player "At this range if he fires he WILL kill you, hit points be damned."  But after I've said that, anybody who says "I have 45 HP, I can take it!" deserves to die.)

Now, I would rule differently:).
But that last line makes it fine by me, as a player or a Referee. As long as the player understands that the HP rules wouldn't apply and thus can account for all relevant factors, I don't see the problem;).

Quote from: Maarzan;936814I only know this rule in regard to totaly helpless people.
Surely this is a disadvantaged situation, but any unarmoured victim of a thiefs backstab is in an even less advantageous situation and the thief is just getting his multiplier.

Would you allow any PC to autokill anything he can get in point black range on a relatively stationary target wit a crossbow?

D&D has positioned itself with its hit point buffer. So it has to live with it in my optinion. Anyone who goes into a fight with someone or something carrying a lethal wepaon is risking it and getting "realistic" here when ignoring the rest looks like an assholemove for me.

1: If the PC just stands there and gets shot then they ARE the equivalent of a totally helpless victem. Thats the point.

2: If the NPC just stupidly stood there and let themselves be murdered. Yes. Dead on the spot. If though they are unaware. Then make a roll to see if you surprise them. Theres a big difference between "I let them stab me" and "Damn this job is bor-Oh fuck!" The DM has to judge each situation.

3: Your opinion is not only wrong. Its not even supported by the rules. Try again please.

I have no problem with an 8th level fighter with 40 HP taking the hit and slaying the guard. It's very Conan to me, especially as HP isn't meat points. By 8th level, that fighter has learned how to twist at the last second to save his neck, letting the bolt graze his shoulder as his sword swings up into the guard's crotch and hacks him in twain. Damn, that bolt was a crit and did 12 points! 40-12 = 1/3 loss so the fighter felt that and now he's only 28 HP going into whatever mess is ahead.

But that's what I want out of Sword & Sorcery.

Other gamers, however, have the right to be wrong and like something else, and perhaps even play RPGs other than those I prefer.

Poor, poor souls, but alas such is the price of freedom.

The key to the Haakon discussion I think is whether the player is obviously metagaming to be a prick or not.

Does Haakon's player know he has 40 Hit Points and the Crossbow is going to do 1d8 and so he knows he will not die, therefore acts like he's the Terminator or something and calmly walks toward the NPC just because he wants to be cool?  Fuck him, he's not dodging, he's got 4HPs like a 0-level.  Same thing with the guy that describes swan diving off a tower headfirst.  You're making no attempt to stop damage - guess what, you don't.

Does Haakon's player charge the NPC, describing running in and dodging, perhaps even trying to get cover, then he falls under the standard combat rules and his Skill, Luck, and Endurance kick in as Hit Points.  Same thing if he walks calmly in and says he's juking when he sees the guy pull the trigger.

Quote from: Spinachcat;936864I have no problem with an 8th level fighter with 40 HP taking the hit and slaying the guard. It's very Conan to me, especially as HP isn't meat points. By 8th level, that fighter has learned how to twist at the last second to save his neck, letting the bolt graze his shoulder as his sword swings up into the guard's crotch and hacks him in twain. Damn, that bolt was a crit and did 12 points! 40-12 = 1/3 loss so the fighter felt that and now he's only 28 HP going into whatever mess is ahead.

But that's what I want out of Sword & Sorcery.

Other gamers, however, have the right to be wrong and like something else, and perhaps even play RPGs other than those I prefer.

Poor, poor souls, but alas such is the price of freedom.

I think there were situations... um, God in the Bowl.... where somebody got the drop on Conan with a missile weapon and he knew he was in trouble.

Also, your example is "I try to dodge out of the way as I close in with the guard," as opposed to the original example which struck me at least as more of "Ho Ho I laugh at your puny crossbow, little NPC."  Your example engages with the imaginary situation instead of merely the rules.

Quote from: AsenRG;936666Yes, you need to, definitely:)!

Done.

One place I never feel GURPS works very well is that crossbow.  Because once you dodge it, and if you have a shield and or drop, you'll probably dodge it, it takes forever to reload.  Black powder firearms are in the same boat.  As written, it's too easy to dodge one shot wonder weapons.  Though, bear in mind, if you fail to dodge, you probably aren't getting any closer to the shooter.

Quote from: David Johansen;936921One place I never feel GURPS works very well is that crossbow.  Because once you dodge it, and if you have a shield and or drop, you'll probably dodge it, it takes forever to reload.  Black powder firearms are in the same boat.  As written, it's too easy to dodge one shot wonder weapons..

They were meant for massed fire at a similarly massed target.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936925They were meant for massed fire at a similarly massed target.

Hush, you and your "having some fucking idea of history."

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936899Done.

Thank you:). It seems I've been using Boot Hill's social system modifiersfor quite a while now...
If you had added the Shotgun Sally example, too, this post might have doubled as "playing realistic and interesting NPCs", too;).

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936925They were meant for massed fire at a similarly massed target.

And from behind walls or mantelet during a siege.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936872I think there were situations... um, God in the Bowl.... where somebody got the drop on Conan with a missile weapon and he knew he was in trouble.

That hack REH didn't read his Gygax!!!

Or maybe Conan only had 12 HP left and knew a crit would kill him. Some PCs smarten up when their HP are low.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936872Also, your example is "I try to dodge out of the way as I close in with the guard," as opposed to the original example which struck me at least as more of "Ho Ho I laugh at your puny crossbow, little NPC."  Your example engages with the imaginary situation instead of merely the rules.

As the DM, I like to give PCs (not players) the benefit of the doubt in regards to their expertise. The player isn't an 8th level fighter, but his PC is and knows WTF is up in melee. For me, HP and class attributes reflect what the PC knows and can do.

But I'm not a realism guy. I want Bruce Lee melee and Matrix gunfights.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936925They were meant for massed fire at a similarly massed target.

Sure and GURPS discusses that in the rules and missile fire is relatively weak compared to D&D because the range penalties are pretty extreme, -4 at ten yards and worse if the target is moving, not to mention a better than fifty percent chance of dodging after that.  It takes people some time to accept that loading a bow takes two or three seconds or loading a crossbow takes five or more especially if you've got a cranquin or windlass.  Sure it pumps out the damage but if it never hits anyone.  That speed / range table is the reason I find it easier to get people into Rolemaster.  The discovery that a long bow isn't a combination high powered sniper rifle / machinegun all rolled into one is almost as unsettling as discovering that a katana is just a really nice sword that can't cut through three inches of oak in a single blow.

Quote from: Spinachcat;936936That hack REH didn't read his Gygax!!!

Or maybe Conan only had 12 HP left and knew a crit would kill him. Some PCs smarten up when their HP are low.

Nope. Not only was he was on full HP, but was young and arrogant to boot.

'I am the watchman, knave,' answered Arus, bracing his rocking courage. 'Stand where you are;
don't move or I'll loose a bolt through you.'
His finger was on the trigger of his arbalest, the wicked square head of the quarrel leveled full on
the other 's broad breast. The stranger [Conan] scowled, and his dark face was lowering. He showed no fear,
but seemed to be hesitating in his mind as to whether he should obey the command or chance a sudden
break of some kind. Arus licked his lips and his blood turned cold as he plainly saw indecision
struggle with a murderous intent in the foreigner 's cloudy eyes.