Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936375These were convention games; Gary would go to a con to "run old style Greyhawk" and watch players run into the teeth of death.  He said he was amazed at how often it happened in so many different places.

Most GMs are softies and don't challenge players. [because they want to have fun with friends!]

I had the same problem with high kill events many years ago, but after a player freaked the fuck out at a con game, I made the point to do a GM introduction and discuss WTF the players would be experiencing at my 4 hour con event. The majority of players sit down expecting a Disney ride with cake and cheers at the end. If you tell them up front that the NPC villains (not the GM) is going to do their best to kill them, you get a different playstyle at that table. Not always 100% smarter, but usually 50% smarter. My returning con players would often give my GM speech for me to new players sitting at the table.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936673Yes, I've tried more "realistic" combat systems including RQ and several I wrote myself.  I now use OD&D.  I want to play a game of exploration and adventure, not WOUNDING: THE CONVALESENCE.

That's makes sense when it comes to wounds, piles of HP create a problem when in adventure mode though:
D&D
Haakon Slash, (8th level fighter 40 HP) opens the door and is faced with the surly Norty the town guard, pointing a heavy crossbow at his chest "drop your weapons and come with me"
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his sword, Norty fires, criticals, 20 damage! Haakon continues his walk and lops off Norty's head.

RQ
Haakon Slash, (Barbarian warrior, 6AP armour, 8 HP chest) opens the door and is faced with Norty,
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his longsword, Norty fires, criticals, Norty gains two special effects, he chooses Bypass Armour and Maximise Damage, rolls Chest for hit location, Haakon goes to -2 in his chest, fails his Endurance roll and is knocked unconscious for 10 minutes.

Quote from: Bilharzia;936735That's makes sense when it comes to wounds, piles of HP create a problem when in adventure mode though:
D&D
Haakon Slash, (8th level fighter 40 HP) opens the door and is faced with the surly Norty the town guard, pointing a heavy crossbow at his chest "drop your weapons and come with me"
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his sword, Norty fires, criticals, 20 damage! Haakon continues his walk and lops off Norty's head.

RQ
Haakon Slash, (Barbarian warrior, 6AP armour, 8 HP chest) opens the door and is faced with Norty,
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his longsword, Norty fires, criticals, Norty gains two special effects, he chooses Bypass Armour and Maximise Damage, rolls Chest for hit location, Haakon goes to -2 in his chest, fails his Endurance roll and is knocked unconscious for 10 minutes.

* checks watch * Meatpoint O'Clock again already?  Damn.

Quote from: Bilharzia;936735That's makes sense when it comes to wounds, piles of HP create a problem when in adventure mode though:
D&D
Haakon Slash, (8th level fighter 40 HP) opens the door and is faced with the surly Norty the town guard, pointing a heavy crossbow at his chest "drop your weapons and come with me"
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his sword, Norty fires, criticals, 20 damage! Haakon continues his walk and lops off Norty's head.

RQ
Haakon Slash, (Barbarian warrior, 6AP armour, 8 HP chest) opens the door and is faced with Norty,
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his longsword, Norty fires, criticals, Norty gains two special effects, he chooses Bypass Armour and Maximise Damage, rolls Chest for hit location, Haakon goes to -2 in his chest, fails his Endurance roll and is knocked unconscious for 10 minutes.

With older editions of D&D, wasn't it a one minute turn on top of being abstracted?  Doesn't mean it doesn't work, just maybe not work for blow by blow combats.  In your example with D&D, while Norty rolled a critical, well, he's a town guard and shooting at Haakon, who's title is Superhero according to my fuzzy AD&D level title memory.  So Norty's awesome just isn't awesome enough.  Skims off Haakon's armor, he loses some abstracted HP and proceeds to show Norty the error of his ways.  Or something, I don't know.  I generally suck at these things.

*every time I read level titles I read it as level titties.

Quote from: RunningLaser;936743With older editions of D&D, wasn't it a one minute turn on top of being abstracted?  Doesn't mean it doesn't work, just maybe not work for blow by blow combats.  In your example with D&D, while Norty rolled a critical, well, he's a town guard and shooting at Haakon, who's title is Superhero according to my fuzzy AD&D level title memory.  So Norty's awesome just isn't awesome enough.  Skims off Haakon's armor, he loses some abstracted HP and proceeds to show Norty the error of his ways.

My point is that at a certain level a D&D PC is immune to certain things and can act accordingly - ie. know that they can take a hit like that with the certainty that they are in no danger, like they are, yes, a superhero. It's presumably an untended consequence of HP inflation and character leveling that personally I find jarring, whereas I'm not so bothered about sepsis not being modeled.

Quote from: Bilharzia;936745My point is that at a certain level a D&D PC is immune to certain things and can act accordingly - ie. know that they can take a hit like that with the certainty that they are in no danger, like they are, yes, a superhero. It's presumably an untended consequence of HP inflation and character leveling that personally I find jarring, whereas I'm not so bothered about sepsis not being modeled.

I know your point, and it's shit.  Only somebody who is very young or too stupid to shit unassisted referees like that.

This "discussion" has been had countless times before, including at least once in this forum in the past year.  I see no need to rehash the inanity again.

Quote from: RunningLaser;936743With older editions of D&D, wasn't it a one minute turn on top of being abstracted?  Doesn't mean it doesn't work, just maybe not work for blow by blow combats.  In your example with D&D, while Norty rolled a critical, well, he's a town guard and shooting at Haakon, who's title is Superhero according to my fuzzy AD&D level title memory.  So Norty's awesome just isn't awesome enough.  Skims off Haakon's armor, he loses some abstracted HP and proceeds to show Norty the error of his ways.  Or something, I don't know.  I generally suck at these things.

*every time I read level titles I read it as level titties.

Or if the referee is not very young or is not too stupid to shit unassisted, "The guard is too close to miss.  Hit points be damned, if he hits you you are in trouble."

There was no "coup de grace" rule in original D&D because Gygax didn't think the players would be so stupid as to need something that obvious pointed out.

Quote from: RunningLaser;936743*every time I read level titles I read it as level titties.

This, on the other hand, is pure gold.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936756I see no need to rehash the inanity again.

Back to rotating gifs then.

Quote from: Bilharzia;936735That's makes sense when it comes to wounds, piles of HP create a problem when in adventure mode though:
D&D
Haakon Slash, (8th level fighter 40 HP) opens the door and is faced with the surly Norty the town guard, pointing a heavy crossbow at his chest "drop your weapons and come with me"
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his sword, Norty fires, criticals, 20 damage! Haakon continues his walk and lops off Norty's head.

In AD&D that would be an insta kill with the crossbow as Hakkon isnt attempting to dodge or defend himself. Roll new character and maybee this time not be a smug moron at my table ok? Go ahead and jump off the cliff while you are at it. You are in for a real surprise there too.

Much the same in BX. You arent in combat and so it may well be insta-death there too.

Quote from: Bilharzia;936745My point is that at a certain level a D&D PC is immune to certain things and can act accordingly - ie. know that they can take a hit like that with the certainty that they are in no danger, like they are, yes, a superhero. It's presumably an untended consequence of HP inflation and character leveling that personally I find jarring, whereas I'm not so bothered about sepsis not being modeled.

The game is NOT the rules. That's the problem here. The DM is well within his rights to rule that Hakkon eats a bolt and dies because he decided to be stupid in the face of a clear and present threat to his life.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;936796The game is NOT the rules. That's the problem here. The DM is well within his rights to rule that Hakkon eats a bolt and dies because he decided to be stupid in the face of a clear and present threat to his life.

Omg u r deprotagonizing me

Enough hit points should mean, that Hakkon did! dodge in the last moment and only got grazed - or the game is breaking down on many more edges too.

Quote from: Maarzan;936808Enough hit points should mean, that Hakkon did! dodge in the last moment and only got grazed - or the game is breaking down on many more edges too.

Pre-3e D&D had rules in place to handle killing someone in one blow no matter what their HP. And one of the old examples was someone just standing there and letting themselves be shot or stabbed and promptly dropping dead. Simmilar to the guillotine example some use. The PC could have 100 HP but they arent in combat so HP dont apply. Just as you can insta-kill a held or sleeping target in older editions. 5e playtest actually had that rule.

Quote from: Bilharzia;936735That's makes sense when it comes to wounds, piles of HP create a problem when in adventure mode though:
D&D
Haakon Slash, (8th level fighter 40 HP) opens the door and is faced with the surly Norty the town guard, pointing a heavy crossbow at his chest "drop your weapons and come with me"
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his sword, Norty fires, criticals, 20 damage! Haakon continues his walk and lops off Norty's head.

RQ
Haakon Slash, (Barbarian warrior, 6AP armour, 8 HP chest) opens the door and is faced with Norty,
Haakon casually walks up to Norty swinging his longsword, Norty fires, criticals, Norty gains two special effects, he chooses Bypass Armour and Maximise Damage, rolls Chest for hit location, Haakon goes to -2 in his chest, fails his Endurance roll and is knocked unconscious for 10 minutes.

D20 Fantasy Craft: Haakon has 15 Wounds, 40 Vitality, 4 HP armour.
Norty fires, critical, 20 damage which bypasses vitality and goes straight to Wounds. The armour takes 4 off, but Haakon still goes down like a punk at -1 Wounds and starts dying (or maybe, if he's got 1 more Wound, becomes merely unconscious).

Also, you should be clear whether you're playing a game where a less skilled enemy pointing a ranged weapon at you is a threat you can deal with, or a threat you must negotiate to avoid. I mean, I prefer the latter, but it's just a different preference, not the end-all be-all* Rule Of Good Roleplaying. And even I play games where the rules make it abundantly clear that a weaker enemy pointing a gun or crossbow at you isn't that much of an issue.
You can still negotiate with him to conserve resources and to avoid announcing your presence, and probably would want to do that, BTW.
I still prefer Mythras. But there's room for other preferences, too.

*Unless you're playing EABAv2 and taking the name way too seriously:D. (And even then the author himself advises against that, so it's your choice how seriously to get it:p).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936756I know your point, and it's shit.  Only somebody who is very young or too stupid to shit unassisted referees like that.

This "discussion" has been had countless times before, including at least once in this forum in the past year.  I see no need to rehash the inanity again.

I'm with you;). There's room for all kinds of fun in this hobby.

Funny enough, most people agree that if a Godbound or Exalted character has a crossbow pointed at him at point-blank range, what we can expect is him dodging to taking the attack on his chest and then disarming, knocking out or killing the attacker. But the same people have an issue with HPs doing the same.
I'm almost tempted to tell people that HP/Vitality are a magical resource granted to adventurers by the gods and demons who enjoy watching their strugles. Said resource prevents deadly blows/Wound damage, then trying a game out with some retroclone or with Fantasy Craft. I've got enough people in my group who dislike HP that it would be an interesting experiment if I can design a suitable character sheet;).

Quote from: Omega;936809Pre-3e D&D had rules in place to handle killing someone in one blow no matter what their HP. And one of the old examples was someone just standing there and letting themselves be shot or stabbed and promptly dropping dead. Simmilar to the guillotine example some use. The PC could have 100 HP but they arent in combat so HP dont apply. Just as you can insta-kill a held or sleeping target in older editions. 5e playtest actually had that rule.

I only know this rule in regard to totaly helpless people.
Surely this is a disadvantaged situation, but any unarmoured victim of a thiefs backstab is in an even less advantageous situation and the thief is just getting his multiplier.

Would you allow any PC to autokill anything he can get in point black range on a relatively stationary target wit a crossbow?

D&D has positioned itself with its hit point buffer. So it has to live with it in my optinion. Anyone who goes into a fight with someone or something carrying a lethal wepaon is risking it and getting "realistic" here when ignoring the rest looks like an assholemove for me.

From the realistic side I also don´t the the surefire kill here too. Sure you have a bigger chance to get hurt (and probably killed) here than in other situations but especially with armor, shield and a nit so experienced foe and a lot of places the bolt can go without killing you immediately (even from just a few feet distance).
And with enough on stake and especially with a loaded cleric in the background a severe injury could be worth it.

So my resumee: play the fitting system for the situations you want to create  and don´t mess with things not suited.