Quote from: Omega;934917In Dragonlance's case thats where I sit back, smile, and not gently at all remind them that the RPG is set after the novels.

In which case, I would lean forward, roll up the FOURTEEN Dragonlance modules that occur during the time of the novels, and were meant to go along with the novels, and not gently at all, shove them right up your ass.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;935000I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick on you, or even this particular example. However, I always wonder when I see something like this, "who are these people?" How many times have you actually tried to run (or seen someone else try to run) a FR campaign, and said something like, "Okay, we're going to run a game in the basic FR world, pre-Time-of-Troubles, but most of the large metaplots from the novels aren't a big part of this story." and had people scream at you about it?

Again I'm not trying to pick on you, because it would in fact really suck if that's part of your personal experiences in roleplaying. But that's such aberrant behavior that I wonder if it is something that actually happens, or just a perceived sense of judgment. My own personal experience is that most (on a 95-99% level) of all drama involving role-playing games, from people telling you you're doing something wrong, to SJW-vs.-whatever the other side would be called back-and-forth, to our recent 'best way to play WOD' thread tangent, exist exclusively in my world because I go out onto internet forums where people (self-selected to be those with passionate opinions) are encouraged to ask and answer questions along the lines of "what is your opinion on..."

But again, if you have had a player scream bloody murder at you because you didn't want Elven Moonblades in your game, my sympathies.

It's not that I've had people scream, it's more that people don't want to play the setting because of all the NPC's 'having done everything' worth doing to some of these players (Some of which were online at WoTC's old forum, but most of them were local, and some conventions I went to), it was on par with not wanting to play in a LoTR game in which they aren't allowed to try and kill Sauron, or at least without a chance of them being successful.

It's a common perception over here.

Which I freely admit is probably a tiny group of individuals, and completely anecdotal.

Personally, I don't care, and I don't use anything I don't like in my games.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;935000I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to pick on you, or even this particular example. However, I always wonder when I see something like this, "who are these people?" How many times have you actually tried to run (or seen someone else try to run) a FR campaign, and said something like, "Okay, we're going to run a game in the basic FR world, pre-Time-of-Troubles, but most of the large metaplots from the novels aren't a big part of this story." and had people scream at you about it?

Again I'm not trying to pick on you, because it would in fact really suck if that's part of your personal experiences in roleplaying. But that's such aberrant behavior that I wonder if it is something that actually happens, or just a perceived sense of judgment. My own personal experience is that most (on a 95-99% level) of all drama involving role-playing games, from people telling you you're doing something wrong, to SJW-vs.-whatever the other side would be called back-and-forth, to our recent 'best way to play WOD' thread tangent, exist exclusively in my world because I go out onto internet forums where people (self-selected to be those with passionate opinions) are encouraged to ask and answer questions along the lines of "what is your opinion on..."

But again, if you have had a player scream bloody murder at you because you didn't want Elven Moonblades in your game, my sympathies.

I've never had anyone scream about it. The one time I ran Forgotten Realms, I did have one player who was really disappointed that I wasn't an expert on the novels like he was. That sucked some of the fun out of it for me.

Personally, my biggest issue is that the novels tend to weaken the utility of the gaming products. Rather that simply provide a playground for the PCs, they have to allude to the novels for cross-marketing purposes. The adventures are often written so players can see, but not touch events from the novels. Any adventure that is designed to work around a meta-plot is one that is not designed with maximum freedom for the PCs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;935054In which case, I would lean forward, roll up the FOURTEEN Dragonlance modules that occur during the time of the novels,

Make that TWELVE modules - DL5 was a setting primer and DL11 was a cosim boardgame.

But I know what you mean. The first novel arrived in German stores only after DL4, so neither players nor DM had the feeling of playing in someone else's backyard. The modules were treated like any other module.
That changed quickly as DMs read the novels and started to feel obligated to follow the plot - despite the fact that the modules left a lot of the setting's characters and events to the whims of random rolls (the roles of Fizban, the Green Gemstone Man, etc.) or even contradicted the novels (Verminaard's demise).

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;935090DL5 was a setting primer

About the time of the novels, not after, because the novels weren't done yet.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;935090DL11 was a cosim boardgame.

Set during the time of the novels, not after.

Nope, he's still getting all 14 right up the shitter. Plus the bucket.

Quote from: Opaopajr;934829Never felt pointless to me. But I always understood Ravenloft to be a deep ethereal "hell" to the darklords, and the whole ordeal for the party was to be the archetypal rebuke to the temptation to power. It's very "paladin in hell" because you are fighting your own virtue v. vice battle, not just with an implaccable and nigh interminable foe, but with yourself. Falling to pride believing that the means to power shall end... whatever (a great past wrong, your own troubles, the suffering of others, etc.)... is exactly the temptation being resisted.

You are fighting a metaphysical battle to be a paragon in a very beautiful yet seemingly hopeless world. Every second your light shines defies the space (or perhas better, defines the space,). Most beings are trapped there because they are all too human; they are emblematic of the shortcomings of human nature.

Your personal change becomes metaphysical because your deeds transcend into the archetypal, if you follow and succeed the well-trod legend. You can change Ravenloft by becoming a darklord in your own right (as a retired character), or you can change Ravenloft by reembodying that legendary hope. This way the people there are not completely lost -- and it nettles the dark lords' hubris, eternally failing to learn from their pride.

It's a subtle lasting effect upon a domain. The greater cyclicality plays well into Western conceptions of everlasting torment. (The West being more partial to linearity for coproreal resolutions, and suspension -- or the eternal -- for the divine.) But the PC heroic interference (whose serendipity is often assisted by the Dread Plane itself to torment its darklord prisoners) is there to keep lit sacred judgment's flame in the face of extra-planar exemplars of cruelty.

In a word it's Pageantry, in the medieval sense. Without renewed participation, new bodies behind each mask, the flame goes out. The cycle must continue for it to be a teachable example. Which, given the ethereal is the realm of thought, memory, and tales, makes perfect sense why Ravenloft is essentially a demiplane hosting Morality Tales Pageants -- and doubles as a hellish prison for its biggest villains. THEY cannot escape their masks, they are always stuck playing themselves; nor can they escape their judgment until they face themselves.

If you wanted to change a Ravenloft domain at the metaphysical level you'd have to play it through something like Dragon Raid, the game of Christian virtues as transcendent mysteries. Could be fun. However D&D's level+loot structure is not designed to represent eschewing temporal power as a means to conflict resolution. Redemption is a very different, and likely more dangerous, way to play Ravenloft; it's more designed as a higher stakes pageant play. (Both ideas are actually really cool if you dwell on it, though.)

   This is one of the best Ravenloft posts I've ever seen--and I've been a fan of the setting for a quarter-century.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;934924So people can only play when 'Sauron' has died, so nothing they do can actually affect the game world in a grand scope?  Some people don't want that.

  It's kind of a shame that the IMO most gameable era of the setting--the Fifth Age--was also the most reviled.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;935090But I know what you mean. The first novel arrived in German stores only after DL4, so neither players nor DM had the feeling of playing in someone else's backyard. The modules were treated like any other module.
That changed quickly as DMs read the novels and started to feel obligated to follow the plot - despite the fact that the modules left a lot of the setting's characters and events to the whims of random rolls (the roles of Fizban, the Green Gemstone Man, etc.) or even contradicted the novels (Verminaard's demise).

   The first novel was released roughly simultaneous with DL5, but they got very far ahead of the adventures very quickly, to the point that the modules didn't wrap up publication until after the release of Test of the Twins.

Quote from: CRKrueger;935091About the time of the novels, not after, because the novels weren't done yet.

Set during the time of the novels, not after.

Nope, he's still getting all 14 right up the shitter. Plus the bucket.

No, man, you can't. Not the muthafuckin' bucket! NOOOOOOOOO!

:-)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;935109This is one of the best Ravenloft posts I've ever seen--and I've been a fan of the setting for a quarter-century.

Stop it, you're making me blush!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;934924So people can only play when 'Sauron' has died, so nothing they do can actually affect the game world in a grand scope?  Some people don't want that.

Too bad for them and their small little minds.

You think after Sauron is gone its all hugs and kisses forever? Just because one evil plan has been stopped in absolutely no way means that more wont crop up. And possibly worse that what just ended.

Try thinking. It helps in RPGs.

Quote from: Omega;935509Too bad for them and their small little minds.

You think after Sauron is gone its all hugs and kisses forever? Just because one evil plan has been stopped in absolutely no way means that more wont crop up. And possibly worse that what just ended.

Try thinking. It helps in RPGs.

Some players want to do the big things, they want to save the world, and quite frankly, I'm not going to insult them by telling them they can't.  It is a fantasy game after all, we do what we think is fun, and forcing people into something they don't want isn't fun.

Maybe instead of forcing, we should keep an open mind for other people?  After all, this is a cooperative group activity.

Quote from: CRKrueger;935054In which case, I would lean forward, roll up the FOURTEEN Dragonlance modules that occur during the time of the novels, and were meant to go along with the novels, and not gently at all, shove them right up your ass.

And I'd point out Im running the Dragonlance campaign setting. Not the AD&D modules. And probably call you a moron for not paying attention to the campaign pitch.

Now if I were running the module series thats a totally different matter. Never seen them other than a glance at the first one way back. But from what everyones ever said about them I assume they follow the books.

Ravenloft never appealed to me at all.  It might not suck, but I could never get into it enough to find out. Liked the original module though.

Ditto for Spelljammer. D&D in spaaace! Nah.  And I like science fantasy.

I thought Forgotten Realms was cool when I was a 16 year old kid.  I got over it pretty quickly though. 1e box was pretty good but it went downhill from there.

All the "historical" settings Kara Tur, Al Qadim, Metzecca (or whatever, I probably spelled all of those wrong) left me flat.

Planescape did not suck, but I didn't find it particularly playable.  It was well done, but it was too much invention and weirdness.  I liked it for Greyhawk background material but not so much as a campaign setting.

I recently pulled out the old Planescape stuff from my basement and gave it a read.  Good grief is that horrible drivel.

Quote from: Old One Eye;935558I recently pulled out the old Planescape stuff from my basement and gave it a read.  Good grief is that horrible drivel.

I am starting to feel disenchantment with Planescape myself. Strange. I used to really, really, love it and its concepts. I tried to start up a campaign recently but I could just not go on longer than one adventure since it just bored me to read those books. Boring factions, boring plots, boring places, boring people etc. I think the pseudo intellectual gimmick with all that relativist nonsense made the whole thing feel pointless. Rather than riddled with opportunities it felt very stiff and constrained. And I finally realized that I actually like the 4e cosmology much better. I still like Sigil, modrons, demons&devils yada yada. But I do think that getting rid of the factions, the cant, and the pretty-but-depressive art, special snowflake plannar rules and the constrained old cosmology was actully good in the long run.

Quote from: Madprofessor;935552Ditto for Spelljammer. D&D in spaaace! Nah.  And I like science fantasy.

I thought Forgotten Realms was cool when I was a 16 year old kid.  I got over it pretty quickly though. 1e box was pretty good but it went downhill from there.

All the "historical" settings Kara Tur, Al Qadim, Metzecca (or whatever, I probably spelled all of those wrong) left me flat.

Planescape did not suck, but I didn't find it particularly playable.  It was well done, but it was too much invention and weirdness.  I liked it for Greyhawk background material but not so much as a campaign setting.

I'm gonna make my pitch here. I owned Spelljammer for several years after it came out. After reading it - I thought "WTF is this shit?" I ended up after running a near half-decade-long campaign of 1e Forgotten Realms run into a rut. I decided what the hell and go full-gonzo and made the transition to Spelljammer with my PC's.

It was beyond fun. In fact, Spelljammer allowed me to use Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim and Maztica, alongside Greyhawk and Dragonlance simultaneously. It's gonzo-over-the-top crazy sure. But Spelljammer has it's own thing going on that made D&D into a crazy Star-Wars game with Elven Imperials, and independents, and world-spanning crime cartels and Star Trek like mysteries. It's quite fun once you let go and embrace the wildness of it.