Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;934621Yikes! :eek:

Black Vulmea is just getting his Internet Edgelord on. I've never seen Zweihander make any allusions to being a part of the OSR, and the OSR is the johnny-come-lately of the retroclone movement anyways, the hairy nutsack hanging off the internet retroclone movement's giant cock.

Quote from: AsenRG;934576Wargame element, a focus on having allies, brutal combat where even a high-level PC might be one-shotted (it's just unlikely), a focus on tricks, a high level of randomness, being inspired by pulps, you name it;)!

Maybe... but I didn't notice any of that while I was playing it... well, the 'pulp' bit... depending on how you want to define 'pulp'. No one had hirelings, combat didn't seem 'brutal' at all (no PCs died in well over a year of playing... except one time where I refused to spend Bennies to save mine).
To me it seemed like it had a lot of built-in mechanisms to make sure the PCs came out on top... which doesn't seem all that OSR to me.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934578The OSR is a late development of the overall retroclone renaissance that started in the early aughts.

Please, share with us the origins of the retroclone renaissance in the "early aughts."

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934630Black Vulmea is just getting his Internet Edgelord on.

There're a lot of long words in there, and I'm naught but a humble pirate.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934630I've never seen Zweihander make any allusions to being a part of the OSR . . .

Look at the quote to which I responded.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934630. . . and the OSR is the johnny-come-lately of the retroclone movement anyways, the hairy nutsack hanging off the internet retroclone movement's giant cock.

Whew, is it hot in here, or is it just me?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934630Black Vulmea is just getting his Internet Edgelord on.

Am I the only one who keeps thinking that's a compliment??

Zweihander absolutely deserves a good ribbing [and kudos to him for being a good sport], but I am looking forward to playing a demo of his Fauxhammer.

But listen up peeps, Zweihander's relentless evangelism paid off in $62k kickstarter. If Zwei can make a distribution plan work, we may be looking at a not-D&D retro-whatever that gains mainstream attention in the FLGS.

Zweihander, do you have some kind of OGL or other 3rd party license for your game?

Quote from: Spinachcat;934642Zweihander absolutely deserves a good ribbing [and kudos to him for being a good sport] . . . (emphasis added - BV)

I'll second that.

I think you might be able to argue FASRIP as one of the earlier retro-clones.  The Star Frontiers community also might be considered one of the earliest fan movements to support a dead game.  To the best of my understanding Castles and Crusades lead to disputes that lead to the creation of OSRIC.  So C&C might be a candidate, especially when it comes to D&D though, one might argue that Arduin, The Palladium Fantasy Roleplaying Game, and Thieves World in particular were D&D clones to a fairly obvious extent though not particularly retro when they were published.

As to my own work, the first version of Dark Passages was a deliberate attempt to state what I consider the core concepts of D&D as much as a game in and of itself.  The objective was to build a coherent one book D&D similar to a combined Basic / Expert set.  The stat modifiers were inspired by Gamma World first edition and the class building system base on the one in the AD&D second edition DMG.

The second version was an attempt to create a more modern game that 'broadened the sweet spot' and provided incremental benefits each level.  In practice I was never quite happy with it.  Though I ran it a fair bit when my store first opened as it's an introductory level game (which was sorely lacking in the market at the time IMO) and I could afford to give copies away as they cost me two bucks.

The third and unfinished version is less recognizably D&D and aimed at running tabletop mass combat, warband, and realm management games.

Why does that matter to this discussion.  Well, I'd consider the first to be an example of an OSR game, it's clearly a D&D legacy clone.  The second is more like third and fourth edition and properly a neo-clone, an attempt to update and improve D&D and not OSR.  The third is more like Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Dungeon Crawl Classics, clearly inspired by D&D but going its own way and thus a fantasy heartbreaker in the proper sense of the term.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934641Please, share with us the origins of the retroclone renaissance in the "early aughts."

Feel free to google any and all of the following...

Encounter Critical, Mazes & Minotaurs, Under A Broken Moon (Over The Edge Retroclone), ZEFRs (TSR Conan Adventure Game retroclone), G-Core (FASERIP pseudo-clone), Double Zero (Victory Games' 007:James Bond RPG retroclone), 4C (another FASERIP retroclone), Mutant Future (Gamma World retroclone), Legends of the Ancient World & Heroes and Other Worlds (The Fantasy Trip retroclones), GORE (BASIC roleplaying retroclone), Terminal Space & 'Go Fer Yer Gun' (Boot Hill retroclones), Thrash (Streetfighter RPG retroclone), Covert Ops (Top Secret pseudoclone)The Singularity System (Traveller Retroclone), SF2000 (StarFrontiers retroclone), Cepheus (another Traveller retroclone), A.R.M. (TORG retroclone), Lances & Labyrinths (Tunnels & Trolls retroclone), Blood, Guts, and Glory (Rolemaster retroclone), Openquest (Runequest retroclone), etc etc...

Quote from: Spinachcat;934642Am I the only one who keeps thinking that's a compliment??

It wasnt really an insult, Ill say that much

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934641Please, share with us the origins of the retroclone renaissance in the "early aughts."

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934652Feel free to google any and all of the following...

Encounter Critical, Mazes & Minotaurs, Under A Broken Moon (Over The Edge Retroclone), ZEFRs (TSR Conan Adventure Game retroclone), G-Core (FASERIP pseudo-clone), Double Zero (Victory Games' 007:James Bond RPG retroclone), 4C (another FASERIP retroclone), Mutant Future (Gamma World retroclone), Legends of the Ancient World & Heroes and Other Worlds (The Fantasy Trip retroclones), GORE (BASIC roleplaying retroclone), Terminal Space & 'Go Fer Yer Gun' (Boot Hill retroclones), Thrash (Streetfighter RPG retroclone), Covert Ops (Top Secret pseudoclone)The Singularity System (Traveller Retroclone), SF2000 (StarFrontiers retroclone), Cepheus (another Traveller retroclone), A.R.M. (TORG retroclone), Lances & Labyrinths (Tunnels & Trolls retroclone), Blood, Guts, and Glory (Rolemaster retroclone), Openquest (Runequest retroclone), etc etc...

Google tells me none of those (or at least the dozen or so I actually researched) were in the "early oughts", with the earliest being 2006.

Quote from: CRKrueger;934657Google tells me none of those (or at least the dozen or so I actually researched) were in the "early oughts", with the earliest being 2006.

Google tells you wrong, the majority were prior to 2003. I know that because 2003 was when I left rpgnet for a few years and then came back to find it....well, what it is today.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934652(...) Mazes & Minotaurs, Under A Broken Moon (Over The Edge Retroclone), (...).

I wouldn't call UABM a retroclone, it's more a setting/genre hack.

But while researching the year of M&M's genesis I found an info that I didn't know, namely that Olivier Legrand didn't come up with the "what if" scenario himself. He wrote the game as a reaction to an RPG.net column: The Gygax - Arneson Tapes.

I found that via an RPG.net review, which contained another interesting thought:

Quote from: Sérgio MascarenhasDoes M&M rules meet Olivier's criteria? Yes, systemwise the game has a genuine old-school feel and it is totally coherent with Paul's article. If there's something I can default M&M at this level is the next: D&D was an outgrowth of minis wargaming. At the time – I am sure – there were several competing rulesets for this hobby. If I was Olivier I would have tried to get a real late 60s, early 70s minis wargame (other than Chainmal, of course) and worked the system from it. As far as I can tell that's not what Olivier did but that's understandable (I have no idea where I would get such an old piece of wargaming archaeology either). To be honest I can't default Olivier on this, it's just that... it would have been even more fun.

(Emphasis mine)

What were those competing rulesets, and which ones would have been suitable for hacking an RPG from it?

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934555I call it 'not-OSR.'

It's just another retro-clone trying to hang from the OSR's hairy, sweaty nutsack as a cheap marketing ploy.

That's your point of view, which you wrote as an as we're to Erik of Tenkar's Tavern. In this case, however, I tend to agree with the opposing view. Since you agree all the games you list yourself are retroclones of old games, I see no value in drawing an arbitrary separation line between clones of older D&D editions and clones of, say, TFT.

Quote from: AsenRG;934669That's your point of view, which you wrote as an as we're to Erik of Tenkar's Tavern. In this case, however, I tend to agree with the opposing view. Since you agree all the games you list yourself are retroclones of old games, I see no value in drawing an arbitrary separation line between clones of older D&D editions and clones of, say, TFT.

Except that system has been shown to matter. A fan of B/X D&D is going to be looking for stuff and products that target that specific edition first, other classic edition second, and then other old school games third. Where stuff like TFT comes into play is that people are not one note wonders, they like to play different games so they may pick up a TFT clones to play something different. And if that happens then he will be looking for TFT products to use with it. My Scourge of the Demon Wolf isn't going to be the at the top of his list when he plays a TFT campaign.

And to stress it is not a binary situation. It a spectrum. The further you are away from classic D&D get become that harder to get a view, download, or sale from the OSR as a whole. Eventually you get to the point where you are in the same boat as anybody else with a novel RPG. Forced to do the groundwork to build an audience for what you are interested in or what you are publishing.

Quote from: Spinachcat;934642Am I the only one who keeps thinking that's a compliment??

Zweihander absolutely deserves a good ribbing [and kudos to him for being a good sport], but I am looking forward to playing a demo of his Fauxhammer.

But listen up peeps, Zweihander's relentless evangelism paid off in $62k kickstarter. If Zwei can make a distribution plan work, we may be looking at a not-D&D retro-whatever that gains mainstream attention in the FLGS.

Zweihander, do you have some kind of OGL or other 3rd party license for your game?

I welcome the ribbing! :cool:

The Forbes article about ZWEIHÄNDER drew a ton of attention to the game from a major Midwest FLGS distribution company. We have a deal in the works for brick & mortar stores, with details to follow after the holiday.

And yes, we are releasing ZWEIHÄNDER under Creative Commons License, with an option for publication through Grim & Perilous Studios. The creators of Eclipse Phase was my biggest influence here on this piece: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/

Quote from: estar;934693Except that system has been shown to matter. A fan of B/X D&D is going to be looking for stuff and products that target that specific edition first, other classic edition second, and then other old school games third.

No doubt, so?

QuoteWhere stuff like TFT comes into play is that people are not one note wonders, they like to play different games so they may pick up a TFT clones to play something different. And if that happens then he will be looking for TFT products to use with it. My Scourge of the Demon Wolf isn't going to be the at the top of his list when he plays a TFT campaign.

I've got to disagree with that, since Scourge of the Demon Wolf is an adventure I happen to have read:D!
See, there's mechanics, and then there's the attitude towards playing RPGs. To me, it's much more important that the module, setting or other supplement be written with the same expectations I have...because then it is going to be useful, even if the mechanics are radically different.
Conversely, if the module, say, assumes enemies are always within your challenge levels, you always find the loot and the loot is exactly what you need to defeat the next encounter (not talking about Scourge of the Demon Wolf, here)...well, I don't really have an interest in doing all the work I'd need to in order to make it work. Even if it's already mechanically compatible with what I'm running, that's going to be more work.

QuoteAnd to stress it is not a binary situation. It a spectrum. The further you are away from classic D&D get become that harder to get a view, download, or sale from the OSR as a whole. Eventually you get to the point where you are in the same boat as anybody else with a novel RPG. Forced to do the groundwork to build an audience for what you are interested in or what you are publishing.

Of course it's a spectrum.
But I'd rather use LotFP historical adventures with GURPS than try and re-work some GURPS adventures I've seen.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;934695I welcome the ribbing! :cool:

The Forbes article about ZWEIHÄNDER drew a ton of attention to the game from a major Midwest FLGS distribution company. We have a deal in the works for brick & mortar stores, with details to follow after the holiday.

And yes, we are releasing ZWEIHÄNDER under Creative Commons License, with an option for publication through Grim & Perilous Studios. The creators of Eclipse Phase was my biggest influence here on this piece: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/

That's a great idea, if you're asking me;)!