I believe 'next step' in the OSR movement is to focus on other RPGs asides D&D, written with a Creative Commons License. There are a slew of niche tabletop RPGs that really need some love. This is what I am trying to achieve with ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

Shadows of the Demon Lord is a deep stab at a post-apocalyptic, dark reflection of WFRP, with a steady blend of D20 and stock D&D heroics to help new fans swallow its oddities.

4C System is an adaptation of FASERIP.

Mutant Future is Gamma World.

Legends of the Ancient World is the retroclone equivalent of The Fantasy Trip.

GORE is a retroclone of Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying.

These are the sort of OSR products that get me excited.

So, this raises the question of whether a game has to clone an existing game to be 'old school' or whether it needs to simply reflect the ethos.  Do we really need a re-write of KABAL or MISSION?  Though, if any game ever needed a re-write...

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;934186I believe 'next step' in the OSR movement is to focus on other RPGs asides D&D, written with a Creative Commons License. There are a slew of niche tabletop RPGs that really need some love. This is what I am trying to achieve with ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

Shadows of the Demon Lord is a deep stab at a post-apocalyptic, dark reflection of WFRP, with a steady blend of D20 and stock D&D heroics to help new fans swallow its oddities.

4C System is an adaptation of FASERIP.

Mutant Future is Gamma World.

Legends of the Ancient World is the retroclone equivalent of The Fantasy Trip.

GORE is a retroclone of Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying.

These are the sort of OSR products that get me excited.

I second this opinion. I think we've played out the extent of the D&D clone-o-sphere. I think the future is in reproducing more niche systems as well as setting content for cool worlds. I'd also like to see more games designed in an OSR spirit without hewing so close to being a clone.

Quote from: Arkansan;934205I second this opinion. I think we've played out the extent of the D&D clone-o-sphere. I think the future is in reproducing more niche systems as well as setting content for cool worlds. I'd also like to see more games designed in an OSR spirit without hewing so close to being a clone.

There is nobody to appeal too to make it happen. A lot of people don't get that the OSR is a bunch of independent efforts and classic D&D has the largest mind share. D&D dominates for a variety of historical reasons. Traveller has about half-dozen independents who are serious about publishing using the OGL material publish original setting. Runequest has a similar number as well. Every other game is lucky to have one or two folks trying to support it.

I realize that I sound negative but it really about the numbers. You want stuff then you need people willing to write. To get people willing to write you need to build big enough of a base. The good news is that if you do get it going then the fact it open content means it won't be shut down arbitrarily. It will keep going as long as there is interest.

Now where the OSR 'as is' will help in the fact that much if it is collaborative in nature especially on the "How to get something out there" department. Individual may not be interested in publishing for say GORE but they certain will help you get your idea for GORE out there with advice.

Quote from: David Johansen;934192So, this raises the question of whether a game has to clone an existing game to be 'old school' or whether it needs to simply reflect the ethos.  Do we really need a re-write of KABAL or MISSION?  Though, if any game ever needed a re-write...

Since the mid 2000s there been a large number of people interested in playing the actual rules of various classic D&D editions. And a bunch people, including myself, who had some success in publishing products that interests this group. However you label them, this group exists.

And the OSR is based open content, which means, because of digital technology, if you have an idea there nothing but your willingness to put the time in to make it happen. So if you decide that by god the world needs another B/X Clone there will be another B/X Clone. If you are disappointed that there isn't couple of thousand sales well that because there are a bunch of other B/X Clones you are competing against. But if your goal is a couple of hundred sales, then that might be doable. If a couple of hundred sales is worth your time then the project is worth doing.

I tell people that if they think they can get a 100 sales within a year then likely they will feel that was time well spent.

Quote from: estar;934222There is nobody to appeal too to make it happen. A lot of people don't get that the OSR is a bunch of independent efforts and classic D&D has the largest mind share. D&D dominates for a variety of historical reasons. Traveller has about half-dozen independents who are serious about publishing using the OGL material publish original setting. Runequest has a similar number as well. Every other game is lucky to have one or two folks trying to support it.

I realize that I sound negative but it really about the numbers. You want stuff then you need people willing to write. To get people willing to write you need to build big enough of a base. The good news is that if you do get it going then the fact it open content means it won't be shut down arbitrarily. It will keep going as long as there is interest.

Now where the OSR 'as is' will help in the fact that much if it is collaborative in nature especially on the "How to get something out there" department. Individual may not be interested in publishing for say GORE but they certain will help you get your idea for GORE out there with advice.

To play devil's advocate: when has the OSR ever been overly concerned with money? The vast majority of OSR products are a labor of love that have little monetary yield. Some wither on the vine and die before conceptions (re: most RPGs on Kickstarter); some become beloved single releases (Whitehack); and some go on to become massively popular (LotFP).

In my case, I have 1,266 backers for ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG on Kickstarter, not including the additional 466 from CrowdOx. That's a lot of support for an OSR product, particularly for an RPG that's not even in print yet. I would reckon most are Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay fans. However, I also labored over the past 5 years building a fanbase through Facebook by using Google Adsense, SEM/SEO, homegrown, organic content placement on forums and strategic content placement on free downloads sites. I attribute some of ZWEIHÄNDER's success to my marketing background, but also a love for the source material and recognition of a gap in the OSR market for a WFRP pseudo-clone/retroclone/loveletter/whatever someone wants to call ZWEIHÄNDER.

Perhaps my situation is an anomaly; maybe I was fortunate to take advantage in a time where Warhammer was left to rot by GW. I guess my point is this: my experience doesn't have to be the exception to the rule. And frankly, with the gut of D&D OSR products, you've gotta do something different to capture the audience's attention, as it's already fractious as-is.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;934302To play devil's advocate: when has the OSR ever been overly concerned with money? The vast majority of OSR products are a labor of love that have little monetary yield. Some wither on the vine and die before conceptions (re: most RPGs on Kickstarter); some become beloved single releases (Whitehack); and some go on to become massively popular (LotFP).

It not mostly concerned with the money and you are right the vast majority of the work is a labor of love. However the addition of being able to paid no matter how minimal is a tangible form of feedback that keep people producing longer than they would otherwise. Downloads, views, and comments are nice but a bunch of willing to put down cold hard makes an impression on most. And based talking to folk, a 100 sales seems to be the number that leaves people pleased that they made desired impact.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;934302Perhaps my situation is an anomaly; maybe I was fortunate to take advantage in a time where Warhammer was left to rot by GW. I guess my point is this: my experience doesn't have to be the exception to the rule. And frankly, with the gut of D&D OSR products, you've gotta do something different to capture the audience's attention, as it's already fractious as-is.

Opportunity is a factor the OSR certainly benefited by the 4e debacle and the Wizards' takedown of their PDF. But the thing is that you thought it through and were able to take advantage when the opportunity arose.

Yup when it comes to making anything classic D&D and taking advantage of the OSR you need to think different to get people's attention. For various reason I want to be able to sell my own rulebook. But there are dozens out there. So I came up with something that different but still serves as the rulebook I need.

Oh, I already wrote a retro-clone.  I lean towards other systems than D&D for the most part.  Still, I don't think my design style is so much old school as mid eighties simulationist.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;934186I believe 'next step' in the OSR movement is to focus on other RPGs asides D&D, written with a Creative Commons License. There are a slew of niche tabletop RPGs that really need some love. This is what I am trying to achieve with ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

Shadows of the Demon Lord is a deep stab at a post-apocalyptic, dark reflection of WFRP, with a steady blend of D20 and stock D&D heroics to help new fans swallow its oddities.

4C System is an adaptation of FASERIP.

Mutant Future is Gamma World.

Legends of the Ancient World is the retroclone equivalent of The Fantasy Trip.

GORE is a retroclone of Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying.

These are the sort of OSR products that get me excited.

I'd agree, but it's happening already. Does it count as a next step?

Quote from: David Johansen;934192So, this raises the question of whether a game has to clone an existing game to be 'old school' or whether it needs to simply reflect the ethos.  Do we really need a re-write of KABAL or MISSION?  Though, if any game ever needed a re-write...

DCC is a prime example of a game that is not a clone, and it's by far not the only one.

Quote from: Arkansan;934205I second this opinion. I think we've played out the extent of the D&D clone-o-sphere. I think the future is in reproducing more niche systems as well as setting content for cool worlds. I'd also like to see more games designed in an OSR spirit without hewing so close to being a clone.

You mean, like Savage Worlds, Barbarians of Lemuria, Crimson Blades and the like?

Quote from: David Johansen;934341Oh, I already wrote a retro-clone.  I lean towards other systems than D&D for the most part.  Still, I don't think my design style is so much old school as mid eighties simulationist.

There should be clones of those games, too! Besides, I find those two are closer than many people give them credit for;).

What if you did a mini-box with a scattershot of mini-quests? They may add up to a whole, but for the most part it is introductory to the mini-box. At the end of each mini-quest have an ABC (good, bad, weird) 3-path suggestion on where to take those quest consequences from there.

Then you could have an adventure module that take one or two mini-quest dots, and their 3-way suggested "endings," and extrapolate them out into new mini-quests. That way the brain fried DMs can just pick up the mini-box and run with any of the consequences straight into a 3-path adventure module. If one's completely fried they can even randomize the choice of ramifications.

It's basically creating Outrun (the racing game) branching paths. Like Choose Your Own Adventure without a whole bunch of death options.

If GMs have trouble after a two-part setup getting the campaign ball moving, well, hopefully they learn something on their replay? :rolleyes: Or you could milk them dry with more branching modules off of each node...

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;934302. . . a gap in the OSR market for a WFRP pseudo-clone/retroclone/loveletter/whatever someone wants to call ZWEIHÄNDER.

I call it 'not-OSR.'

It's just another retro-clone trying to hang from the OSR's hairy, sweaty nutsack as a cheap marketing ploy.

Quote from: AsenRG;934467You mean, like Savage Worlds, Barbarians of Lemuria, Crimson Blades and the like?

I haven't engaged with the other two but nothing about Savage Worlds has me feeling it's 'OSR spirit'... where are you seeing it? Is it the wargame element?

Quote from: Simlasa;934575I haven't engaged with the other two but nothing about Savage Worlds has me feeling it's 'OSR spirit'... where are you seeing it? Is it the wargame element?

Wargame element, a focus on having allies, brutal combat where even a high-level PC might be one-shotted (it's just unlikely), a focus on tricks, a high level of randomness, being inspired by pulps, you name it;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;934467Does it count as a next step?

.

No, its the previous step. The OSR is a late development of the overall retroclone renaissance that started in the early aughts.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934555I call it 'not-OSR.'

It's just another retro-clone trying to hang from the OSR's hairy, sweaty nutsack as a cheap marketing ploy.

Yikes! :eek: