More specifically, games where magic-users can employ healing magic and you don't have to be religious to be a healer.

I can't believe that, in 2016, with as many people who have complained about and/or tried to fix/houserule it over the years, pretty much all games based on D&D still cling to the arcane/divine split and insist that only religious warrior-priests can use healing magic.  Not to bash people who want to play that way, but why are there not more rulesets for those of us who don't?

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head is Beyond the Wall and Crypts and Things.  Both of these are great games, but are also aimed at very particular types of games (Young Adult fantasy and classical Sword and Sorcery, respectively).  Is there anything more generic, something with the feel of B/X but without the magic split?

One other I can think of is 3D6 In Order, which still has clerics but also has a Healer arcane sub-class.  And I guess Castles and Crusades kind of counts in newer iterations (Illusionists), although I don't care for the rationale behind that.

What else is out there?

Here's where things get sticky, if we use fantasy literature as part of the basis:  Wizards as 'Generalists', most often, the average spell caster was a person (or monster) that had a specific set of magical skills/abilities that could correspond with a certain title, like the Enchanter.  The Oracle could also be called a Diviner.  The Conjurer.  And the perennial villainous favourite:  The Necromancer.

Thing is, D&D is its own thing, and unless you want to rewrite the entire system from scratch, sometimes, leaving it well enough alone is the best you can do.

My wife is a big fan of healing wizard blend characters, and I suspect it ties into the kind of fantasy literature that she reads. I've seen a few examples of what I think you are suggesting:

(1) AD&D 2E had some optional rules whereby a wizard could custom-build a wizard. In those rules you could sacrifice several spell schools in order to add in an extra, and one of those extras was the school of healing.

(2) Pretty much any edition of D&D has some rules for multi-classing, so a character could be a cleric-wizard blend that way.

(3) 5E has a feat whereby one can grab some cantrips and a level-1 spell from another class, and I like to pick cleric as that class just so I can get the Healing Word spell.

I'm sure there are others, but clearly others share your thought that a wizard ought to have healing options. I agree that no one has put together a class designed to fit that role, but it does sort of step on the toes of the cleric so I can see why many would avoid such a class in their campaign.

Quote from: Technomancer;933427I can't believe that, in 2016, with as many people who have complained about and/or tried to fix/houserule it over the years, pretty much all games based on D&D still cling to the arcane/divine split and insist that only religious warrior-priests can use healing magic.  Not to bash people who want to play that way, but why are there not more rulesets for those of us who don't?

I've put together a few themed lists of spells that are tied to guild and temple. Spell casting classes can learn any spell from the "general list" (95%), and there are temple and guild specific spells. These are only available to those practitioners.

You have to acquire or research all spells, no freebies per level. If it is on the guild list, research is at half cost as you have access to mentors, rare texts, &c. You general Cure Light Wounds and such are on the general list. Heal is not.

Class changes: Steel disrupts magic, so don't wear or carry it. Magicians don't wear armor as they need freedom of movement, clerics can as they mostly just request powers to invoke miracles. Magicians average about 1.5 spells per level, clerics 1 / level. Magicians can use higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells, as the slots reflect not only accumulated power but also skill. Clerics can't. However, clerics have Grace, about 2 points + 1 / 3 levels. When invoking grace, an expended spell can be cast again, or a current spell can be boosted. You can even spend more grace than you have, but then you start collecting Hubris, and that's not good.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;933444Thing is, D&D is its own thing, and unless you want to rewrite the entire system from scratch, sometimes, leaving it well enough alone is the best you can do.

Not the entire system, but, yeah, a good chunk. It took about 20-30 hours to go through the spells, decide on themes, and finalize the lists and the benefit / reward.

THe Seven Voyages of Zylarthen fits the bill. It's more OD&D (+Greyhawk) than B/X but that shouldn't be a huge fix (mainly just switch out HD progression). It does use Greyhawk's weapon vs AC table but handles it much better. It also has a nice encumbrance system that works well with the character sheet, which is quite simple with an old school feel.

ACKS by default has the classic arcane/divine split, but the official spell-building system in the Player's Companion (which should mostly be called the GM's Companion) would let you create a set of arcane healing spells, or I believe the newsletter has a spell-type-building-system so you can come up with complete other approaches to spellcasting beyond the arcane/divine split and still be consistent with the rest of the rules.

Crimson Blades has only two kinds of magic, summoning and spells. Wizards and Dendrelissy both can use both of these, though the Wizards get better spells and worse summoning. It's a Dark Fantasy game and does a good job in evoking the genre, though, which might be a problem for the OP:).

Low Fantasy has no such split, because only wizards can cast spells by default. It's a game that hews very closely to the fantasy traditions.
Even more importantly to the OP, if the Referee doesn't mind, even the non-wizards could pick a healing spell or two, or potentially get Quick Healing via rare Athelas herbs, by using their Unique Features which every class receives every 3rd level:p!

The Nightmares Underneath allows you to either "master" spells, or receive them from Powers Beyond (which grant them faster, but you risk them stopping to do so if the PC displeases them). Technically, all classes have some access to spells, but all spells need a roll to cast. The "specialists" can avoid the consequences of failing, albeit at a price, and everyone else runs a great risk of mishaps, like killing whoever you were trying to heal;).

Quote from: AsenRG;933495Crimson Blades has only two kinds of magic, summoning and spells. Wizards and Dendrelissy both can use both of these, though the Wizards get better spells and worse summoning. It's a Dark Fantasy game and does a good job in evoking the genre, though, which might be a problem for the OP:).

Low Fantasy has no such split, because only wizards can cast spells by default. It's a game that hews very closely to the fantasy traditions.
Even more importantly to the OP, if the Referee doesn't mind, even the non-wizards could pick a healing spell or two, or potentially get Quick Healing via rare Athelas herbs, by using their Unique Features which every class receives every 3rd level:p!

The Nightmares Underneath allows you to either "master" spells, or receive them from Powers Beyond (which grant them faster, but you risk them stopping to do so if the PC displeases them). Technically, all classes have some access to spells, but all spells need a roll to cast. The "specialists" can avoid the consequences of failing, albeit at a price, and everyone else runs a great risk of mishaps, like killing whoever you were trying to heal;).

I've skimmed Low Fantasy and it looked good, might need to delve more deeply.

I own Crimson Blades, and IIRC there is no healing magic at all.

Quote from: Technomancer;933505I've skimmed Low Fantasy and it looked good, might need to delve more deeply.

I own Crimson Blades, and IIRC there is no healing magic at all.

There is, but for a start, you must summon a demon of Desire:p!

And yes, I'd recommend checking Low Fantasy. It's got other perks as well;).

Quote from: AsenRG;933514There is, but for a start, you must summon a demon of Desire:p!

Cues up Marvin Gaye...

My very own Swords & Six-Siders, basically a 1d6 BX, which can be downloaded for free at //www.vanquishingleviathan.com

Quote from: Technomancer;933427More specifically, games where magic-users can employ healing magic and you don't have to be religious to be a healer.

I never thought of this as being a rare thing. Some magic-user spells in AD&D 1st Ed can heal. Lankhmar for 1st Ed AD&D has Black Wizards and White Wizards. Black Wizards use the combined M-U and Illusionist spell lists, while White Wizards access Cleric & Druid spells and thus are certainly examples of magic-users who use healing magic. Not OSR, just OS.

For non-D&D games, Mythus had a good couple dozen different "classes" of magic, including a Healer vocation which was separate from Priestcraefters, and there was even of school of "magic-users" (termed Dweomercraefters in Mythus), the White School, that specialized in beneficial magics.

In Lejendary Adventure, the "healing spell" a Mage can learn is arguably better (depending on circumstance) than the standard "Heal" power for the various Theurgists.

Maybe it's just the games I've played, but the Arcane/Divine split (terms which I consider goofy to begin with) seems more like an oddity of "newer" versions of D&D than a standard thing.

Quote from: Lunamancer;933551Maybe it's just the games I've played, but the Arcane/Divine split (terms which I consider goofy to begin with) seems more like an oddity of "newer" versions of D&D than a standard thing.

The terms were floating around by the mid-90s at the very latest; I saw them used in the Forum in Dragon at that time. The evolution of the division would be an interesting study. Some points I could identify:
--Dragonlance made a big deal out of wizard magic not being able to heal.
--Rolemaster (not D&D, but very much informed by the culture of the time and starting out as D&D variant rules) defined the realms of Essence, Channeling and Mentalism.
--2nd Edition sharpened the sense of "two types of magic" with the collapse of spells into Wizard and Priest categories, and discouraged wizard healing in the DMG.
--Arcane healing was absolutely forbidden at the start of 3rd Edition; if you read the Conversion Manual closely, you find out that you're not even supposed to convert any such spells over.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;933552The terms were floating around by the mid-90s at the very latest; I saw them used in the Forum in Dragon at that time. The evolution of the division would be an interesting study. Some points I could identify:
--Dragonlance made a big deal out of wizard magic not being able to heal.
--Rolemaster (not D&D, but very much informed by the culture of the time and starting out as D&D variant rules) defined the realms of Essence, Channeling and Mentalism.
--2nd Edition sharpened the sense of "two types of magic" with the collapse of spells into Wizard and Priest categories, and discouraged wizard healing in the DMG.
--Arcane healing was absolutely forbidden at the start of 3rd Edition; if you read the Conversion Manual closely, you find out that you're not even supposed to convert any such spells over.

Yeah, that's about what I consider "newer" anything from 2nd Ed on. That's where I see a lot of the annoying tenets of "modern" RPG design popping up. Like rationalizing and categorizing things to the detriment of nuance. "Two types of magic" is certainly one example from that. It should go without saying that a pastime of imagination is in rough shape when anything that doesn't fit neatly inside the box must be altered or abolished. Like magic-user healing, which doesn't fit the narrative that classes are about niche protection and the niche of the priest is that of the party's heal bitch.

According to what I've read, Ken St. Andre didn't like clerics when he played OD&D so when he wrote Tunnels & Trolls, he included only Warriors and Wizards so there was no divide, only a caster class and a non-caster class.

It works great.