Quote from: Tod13;931784Sounds good _in theory_. In actuality, it sounds like a monumental pain of bookkeeping. YMMV

Yeah, I like things to be active in a sandbox, but I'm happier either moving things around myself, possibly using something like the faction system in SWN or just using roleplaying decisions on what I think the major NPC are up to. I'm fine with some conditionals and timers, but having a bunch of them scattered between a dozen books and all interlinking sounds rough.

It isn't a bad idea though. What I consider to be a painful level of tracking is someone else's idea of GM bliss.

Quote from: Tod13;931784Sounds good _in theory_. In actuality, it sounds like a monumental pain of bookkeeping. YMMV

I guess it would be a monumental pain in writing, taking into account every contingency from other modules.

The "bookkeeping" part I envision more as a list with checkboxes in the introductory paragraph of each module, as well as at the end (surviving named foes, NPC travels to ________).

Or even better, the original DL5 was a primer on the setting and the storyline of the first modules. The "done right" product could have a flowchart/network of the campaign, a relationship map of locations and events where the DM could track his results.

Wasn't Frog God's Splinter of Faith series an adventure path with more old school sensibilities? What did they do differently? I've never seen it, Frog God has a catastrophic distribution.

I keep meaning to get started on my DCC-setting-based book, but I haven't yet been able to get my head around how I want to frame it.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;931766I don't think that boxed sets are feasible for a market segment that has to rely on PoD. Boxes are expensive to produce and ship. They were a marketing (or rather, distribution) tool in the heydays of TSR. Boxes exclaimed, "I am a GAME" on the shelves of toy stores.
Today's OSR customers don't need that.

1) The boxed set has been done multiple times and the process is well documented. It neither easy or hard, it is a choice with advantages and consequences. For the most part it is not done not because of cost or even the assembly of the product but because of how much a pain in the ass the shipping is.

2) The advantage of the boxed set is that it takes multiple books, posters, and accessories and packages them into a complete unit.

3) More boxed set will be seen when print on demand game board companies like The Gamecrafter offer better printing options.

Quote from: Tod13;931784Sounds good _in theory_. In actuality, it sounds like a monumental pain of bookkeeping. YMMV

Well the beauty of the OSR is that outside of the personal time invested, it is inexpensive to try something different in terms of product format.

Quote from: RPGPundit;932107I keep meaning to get started on my DCC-setting-based book, but I haven't yet been able to get my head around how I want to frame it.

Could you teach me how to run your campaign? If the answer is yes, then make the book about that approach.

Dark Albion in one sense a straight up history of a fantastic place. The same with Arrows of Indra. Given your background it was probably straightforward for you to write. However the DCC RPG campaign seems to be more about how you run it as opposed to the setting.

In a sense that what  was Vornheim is. There were details on Zack's setting but what made it was unique was his explanation on using random tables to drive the campaign along with other tidbits and advice. That everything was part of a coherent whole.

Do the same for your DCC RPG campaign. By all means include setting info, stuff (monsters, magic items, etc.) But focus on what you do to run it and it do it from the standpoint of a teaching a fellow referee how to run it.

Quote from: estar;9321483) More boxed set will be seen when print on demand game board companies like The Gamecrafter offer better printing options.

That's an interesting prediction. I had expected we had largely seen the demise of boxed sets.  I would be very curious to see what a box-set revival ends up looking like.

Quote from: estar;932150Could you teach me how to run your campaign? If the answer is yes, then make the book about that approach.

That's EXACTLY the challenge that has me writers-blocked on this one. Because it's not like Albion or AoI.  So much of what makes the Last Sun setting is the way we've played it.  But I've always sort of despised books that dedicate a huge section to "GM advice".  
Even so, I get the feeling I'll have to go that route in some way; maybe in part by doing some Yoon-Suin style random-tables approach, and in part by doing some kind of manifesto on "Punditesque Full Gonzo".

QuoteDark Albion in one sense a straight up history of a fantastic place. The same with Arrows of Indra. Given your background it was probably straightforward for you to write. However the DCC RPG campaign seems to be more about how you run it as opposed to the setting.

I'd say one-third is the setting and its weird elements and themes. That's the easy part.
A second third is the style of how it is run, that full-gonzo style. That's a lot harder.
The third part is the group themselves, and the dynamics of the group, that's the part that would be almost impossible to convey because it's about the people.  It's a bit like the BBC trying to do Top Gear without Clarkson, May and Hammond.

Quote from: RPGPundit;932991That's an interesting prediction. I had expected we had largely seen the demise of boxed sets.  I would be very curious to see what a box-set revival ends up looking like.

The limiting factor right now is shipping and handling not the affordability of actual production which is in the hundreds of dollars. Kickstarter only made it easier to raise the low amount of capital.

But Print on the Demand games would solve the handling issue and push the capital cost down even further. The cost being the fact that the PoD outfit would take a chunk out of the list price. However you have to weigh that against the publisher places on his time.

Quote from: RPGPundit;932996That's EXACTLY the challenge that has me writers-blocked on this one. Because it's not like Albion or AoI.  So much of what makes the Last Sun setting is the way we've played it.  But I've always sort of despised books that dedicate a huge section to "GM advice".

When I did the Majestic Wilderlands supplement, I didn't want to do a World of Greyhawk style setting book. But.. I know the type of information that Greyhawk presented will need to be presented in some way. My solution was to make just ONE section of the supplement just that a WoG style travelogue. However I then used to the other two section to show how all that worked in terms of Swords & Wizardry.

I related this not so much for the stuff I actually did but for the process I used to arrive at what I did. You don't like how GM advice was presented in the past. However GM advice is what needed in this supplement. So perhaps the solution is to give the advice anyway but then use the rest of the product to show how that advice works in the context of the DCC RPG and your setting. Along with presenting any tools you used during the campaign.

So that way the entire product is better than something that is just GM advice.

Or you may have something come to you out of left field resulting in something like Zak's Vornheim. Something unique. I didn't have that kind of inspiration when it came to writing about the world of the Majestic Wilderlands so I instead focused on SHOWING how it worked and also keeping it as terse as possible.


 

Quote from: RPGPundit;932996Even so, I get the feeling I'll have to go that route in some way; maybe in part by doing some Yoon-Suin style random-tables approach, and in part by doing some kind of manifesto on "Punditesque Full Gonzo".

And the good thing is that you are looking at the GM advice with skepticism. You are not just saying "well my GM advice is going to be better than anybody else.". I am confident that when put into the position where there is really no better way than just write a GM advice article that you will actively try to avoid the pitfalls and format it as best as you can.

Quote from: RPGPundit;932996A second third is the style of how it is run, that full-gonzo style. That's a lot harder.

Yes that going to be one of the tricks. A similar issue I faced when I was trying to avoid writing just another setting travelogue.

Quote from: RPGPundit;932996The third part is the group themselves, and the dynamics of the group, that's the part that would be almost impossible to convey because it's about the people.  It's a bit like the BBC trying to do Top Gear without Clarkson, May and Hammond.

One thing that the military does is have after action reports. My gut feeling that something similar would be useful for referees to learn off of other referees. Now what happened in the military is that the format was standardized and refined over decades. There is a similar deal with case law in common law countries. A report on the what, where, who and why of how your campaign unfolded and what your players were doing may be useful if presented the right way in a terse format.

The goal with such a report would make the reader go "Oh I get why that happened and why those rulings were made to handle it."

Obviously you will be cherry picking the most interesting or useful bits.

I would love to have seen something like this for a Fate campaign. It probably would made my playtest a lot more informed.

Quote from: estar;933109Or you may have something come to you out of left field resulting in something like Zak's Vornheim. Something unique. I didn't have that kind of inspiration when it came to writing about the world of the Majestic Wilderlands so I instead focused on SHOWING how it worked and also keeping it as terse as possible.

See, to be honest, I don't think Vornheim is actually a very great product in terms of explaining Vornheim. It's good for some cool random tables that are very interesting for some semi-weird D&D play, but there's very little about the actual setting that's really 'there'.  
Majestic Wilderlands has some amazing mods to standard D&D which is very cool, but I also wonder just how much it really impresses the setting of the Wilderlands as a place. It does TO ME, but that's because I already knew the wilderlands. But reading it I kind of questioned whether someone who had zero prior knowledge of the Wilderlands would actually grasp much of it as a setting from the product.

If I was to think of a product that WOULD do what I think you're talking about here, the one that would be the gold-standard for this, I'd say it'd be Yoon-Suin. It doesn't present the standard setting material in a straightforward way, but through a series of encounters and random stuff does a spectacular job of impressing just what the deal of the whole setting is. It's amazing in that sense.


 

QuoteAnd the good thing is that you are looking at the GM advice with skepticism. You are not just saying "well my GM advice is going to be better than anybody else.". I am confident that when put into the position where there is really no better way than just write a GM advice article that you will actively try to avoid the pitfalls and format it as best as you can.

As a rule, I'm skeptical of ALL "GM advice".  Not just in the sense that in almost all books that have a chapter of GM advice that chapter is totally useless, but in the sense that 90% of books, there isn't a real need for "gm advice" at all.
I can count on one hand the number of RPG books I've read where the GM advice chapter was both good and needed.

QuoteOne thing that the military does is have after action reports. My gut feeling that something similar would be useful for referees to learn off of other referees. Now what happened in the military is that the format was standardized and refined over decades. There is a similar deal with case law in common law countries. A report on the what, where, who and why of how your campaign unfolded and what your players were doing may be useful if presented the right way in a terse format.

The goal with such a report would make the reader go "Oh I get why that happened and why those rulings were made to handle it."

Obviously you will be cherry picking the most interesting or useful bits.

I would love to have seen something like this for a Fate campaign. It probably would made my playtest a lot more informed.

Well, curiously, the format of my DCC campaign updates follows that kind of style already.

Quote from: RPGPundit;934117I can count on one hand the number of RPG books I've read where the GM advice chapter was both good and needed.

I'd be interested in your list, short as it may be.

Quote from: RPGPundit;934117See, to be honest, I don't think Vornheim is actually a very great product in terms of explaining Vornheim. It's good for some cool random tables that are very interesting for some semi-weird D&D play, but there's very little about the actual setting that's really 'there'.  
Majestic Wilderlands has some amazing mods to standard D&D which is very cool, but I also wonder just how much it really impresses the setting of the Wilderlands as a place. It does TO ME, but that's because I already knew the wilderlands. But reading it I kind of questioned whether someone who had zero prior knowledge of the Wilderlands would actually grasp much of it as a setting from the product.

I was new to the Wilderlands when purchasing Majestic Wilderlands. Apart from a minor objection, it definitely presented the setting as a place, to me.

Yoon-Suin I'm still reading, but I'm not so sure I'd rate it higher than the Majestic Wilderlands in terms of clarity.

QuoteAs a rule, I'm skeptical of ALL "GM advice".  Not just in the sense that in almost all books that have a chapter of GM advice that chapter is totally useless, but in the sense that 90% of books, there isn't a real need for "gm advice" at all.
I can count on one hand the number of RPG books I've read where the GM advice chapter was both good and needed.

I'd need both hands, and possibly the legs, but that's still less than 10% of the total books.
Of course, it only confirms my pet theory that 90% of everything is crap, including 90% of all GMing advice, so I can only say things are working as expected:D!

When Greg Stafford did Pendragon Vth Edition, he included "Designer's Notes" where he talked about what he was trying to achieve and how he tried to achieve it.

I wonder if THAT would be more useful to referees than "Referee Advice."  Sure, you don't HAVE to run the game the way the writer intends, but I think it's useful to have some idea of what the writer thought they were doing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934173When Greg Stafford did Pendragon Vth Edition, he included "Designer's Notes" where he talked about what he was trying to achieve and how he tried to achieve it.

I wonder if THAT would be more useful to referees than "Referee Advice."  Sure, you don't HAVE to run the game the way the writer intends, but I think it's useful to have some idea of what the writer thought they were doing.

It would be a good idea if more people started doing it, indeed;).