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What Makes A Classless System Work?

Started by Ashakyre, September 20, 2016, 07:45:02 PM

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TristramEvans

#180
November 13, 2016, 09:55:52 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;930542Oddly enough, the other guy sometimes has a different take on whether their argument is worthwhile or not.  People are funny that way.

Sure. But everyone gets to chose for themselves the value of conversing with any other person. And yeah, I trust my judgement over every other person on Earth. Most people do.

yosemitemike

#181
November 14, 2016, 12:51:48 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;930577Sure. But everyone gets to chose for themselves the value of conversing with any other person. And yeah, I trust my judgement over every other person on Earth. Most people do.

Most people do think they are right which is why most people don't consider arguments they don't already agree with to be worthwhile.  Fans never find criticism of the object of their fandom to be valid either.  It's the way of the world.
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

crkrueger

#182
November 14, 2016, 02:49:24 AM
Quote from: Christopher Brady;930474You're right, it's not.
So in a classless system when someone chooses to put points in "Skill X" instead of "Skill Y" they're really making classes within a classless system - let me guess, they're also naturally moving towards niche protection and everything else that went into 3e class design because really that's the only way things work either forced by mechanics or naturally done by players...

Yeah. Ok.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Black Vulmea

#183
November 14, 2016, 02:54:26 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;930603Most people do think they are right which is why most people don't consider arguments they don't already agree with to be worthwhile.  Fans never find criticism of the object of their fandom to be valid either.  It's the way of the world.
Fucker, please.

It's not that people haven't considered your argument. It's that they considered your argument and decided you're full of shit.
"Of course five generic Kobolds in a plain room is going to be dull. Making it potentially not dull is kinda the GM\'s job." - #Ladybird, theRPGsite

Really Bad Eggs - swashbuckling roleplaying games blog  | Promise City - Boot Hill campaign blog

ACS

yosemitemike

#184
November 14, 2016, 04:02:09 AM
Quote from: Black Vulmea;930616Fucker, please.

It's not that people haven't considered your argument. It's that they considered your argument and decided you're full of shit.

Oh go fuck yourself.
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

AsenRG

#185
November 14, 2016, 06:51:50 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;930614So in a classless system when someone chooses to put points in "Skill X" instead of "Skill Y" they're really making classes within a classless system - let me guess, they're also naturally moving towards niche protection and everything else that went into 3e class design because really that's the only way things work either forced by mechanics or naturally done by players...

Yeah. Ok.
No doubt that's what Cupcake believes, but as it almost always happens, reality is bound to be slightly different;)!
What Do You Do In Tekumel? See examples!
"Life is not fair. If the campaign setting is somewhat like life then the setting also is sometimes not fair." - Bren

TristramEvans

#186
November 14, 2016, 07:01:03 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;930603Most people do think they are right which is why most people don't consider arguments they don't already agree with to be worthwhile.

Okay, but that really has no relevance to this conversation.

yosemitemike

#187
November 14, 2016, 07:40:24 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;930647Okay, but that really has no relevance to this conversation.

Well, there certainly haven't been any people dismissing rather than engaging with arguments they didn't agree with in this thread.
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

TristramEvans

#188
November 14, 2016, 08:05:43 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;930650Well, there certainly haven't been any people dismissing rather than engaging with arguments they didn't agree with in this thread.

I mean the statements don't follow from what was specifically said in the tangent that you're replying to, so I guess I'm just lost as to the point you're making at this point.

Maarzan

#189
November 14, 2016, 10:21:58 AM
So what can (usually will) happen if you are not using classes?

People will be:

A) Building something like a class anyway
B) Building a jack-of-too-many-trades, nowhere reaching the level of useablity (And crying because they are not matching their favorite mary-sue movie hero)
C) Building a monster mixing everything available from all sources into this end-all-speciality aka scry-dimensiondoor-backstab-sharpshooter. The rest gets "roleplayed"
D) Building something "natural" and forgetting half of the essentials (Which 1.lvl classes often tend to do either, so not that much of a problem except for oneshots)
E) anything missing?

Tod13

#190
November 14, 2016, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930222What makes a classless system work is exactly the same thing that makes a system with classes work.

Players and a referee who are smart enough to shit unassisted, and socialized enough to not be utter dickweeds.

I'm not even sure the "smart" part is required. :p

crkrueger

#191
November 14, 2016, 10:48:33 AM
Quote from: Maarzan;930667So what can (usually will) happen if you are not using classes?

People will be:

A) Building something like a class anyway
B) Building a jack-of-too-many-trades, nowhere reaching the level of useablity (And crying because they are not matching their favorite mary-sue movie hero)
C) Building a monster mixing everything available from all sources into this end-all-speciality aka scry-dimensiondoor-backstab-sharpshooter. The rest gets "roleplayed"
D) Building something "natural" and forgetting half of the essentials (Which 1.lvl classes often tend to do either, so not that much of a problem except for oneshots)
E) anything missing?

Yeah, just making the character they want, as varied as they want, without being an asshat, special snowflake or PCpeen measuring jackass, and just being cool, you know how RQ, Traveller, GURPS etc. people have been doing it for 30+ fucking years.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

K Peterson

#192
November 14, 2016, 10:59:12 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;930674Yeah, just making the character they want, as varied as they want, without being an asshat, special snowflake or PCpeen measuring jackass, and just being cool, you know how RQ, Traveller, GURPS etc. people have been doing it for 30+ fucking years.
Applause, sir. Applause.

Maarzan

#193
November 14, 2016, 11:06:15 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;930674Yeah, just making the character they want, as varied as they want, without being an asshat, special snowflake or PCpeen measuring jackass, and just being cool, you know how RQ, Traveller, GURPS etc. people have been doing it for 30+ fucking years.

You are not understanding,I assume.
If it works out, it will usually resemble some kind of "class", because decent specialisation is usually the most efficient way to do things (even if you neglect that most non-primitive cultures work by creating specialists).

AsenRG

#194
November 14, 2016, 11:06:59 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;930674Yeah, just making the character they want, as varied as they want, without being an asshat, special snowflake or PCpeen measuring jackass, and just being cool, you know how RQ, Traveller, GURPS etc. people have been doing it for 30+ fucking years.

:D
You mean anyone plays those games:p?

Yeah, more to the point, I'm almost starting to think this concept is way too fucking hard for some people to grasp. Don't know why, but I sure hope it's nothing but a consequence of lacking experience with classless systems;).
What Do You Do In Tekumel? See examples!
"Life is not fair. If the campaign setting is somewhat like life then the setting also is sometimes not fair." - Bren
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