It seems to me that all of this is focused on hypothetical extremes and such.

Practically, there are a lot of classless systems - like Traveller, RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Amber, FATE. Characters in these systems often don't split into types to the degree that old-school D&D did.  Do people have a problem with how these real systems typically work?

Quote from: jhkim;929807Practically, there are a lot of classless systems - like Traveller, RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Amber, FATE. Characters in these systems often don't split into types to the degree that old-school D&D did.

While this is true, I would argue that just as often, they do.  Traveller's Careers are very much a  class system, in the same vein as WFRP in that you can move from one class to another.  I know in Amber part of the reason my players pushed so hard for First or Second Rank in Attributes was that if they didn't, they had no idea what to do with the resulting fair-to-middling character (although some went for being "the Sorcery Guy" or "the Artifact and Armies guy", which is a "class" of another type.)  Despite superhero comic books not having class archetypes at all, most point-buy superhero games promote the notion that superheroes fall into one of a small number of "types".

I do think much of this comes from expectation-setting by D&D; a lot of roleplayers look to the game mechanics to distinguish their character from others and don't know how to do that if there aren't crunchy bits on the character sheet for it.

Quote from: jhkim;929807Do people have a problem with how these real systems typically work?

It appears that some people do have a problem or they are over-exaggerating the meaning of classes and archetypes to the point that everyone who ever lived in fiction or reality is an archetype. In which case archetype = human being and we can just toss the word "archetype" into the literary dustbin.

Quote from: daniel_ream;929815I do think much of this comes from expectation-setting by D&D; a lot of roleplayers look to the game mechanics to distinguish their character from others and don't know how to do that if there aren't crunchy bits on the character sheet for it.

Then they need to learn that, so a stretch of classless games would only be beneficial;).

Quote from: AsenRG;929861Then they need to learn that, so a stretch of classless games would only be beneficial;).

I ran Amber Diceless for two years.  They eventually matured from "The Strength Guy" or "The Advanced Pattern/Psyche Guy" to "Clone of that guy from that show/movie/book I think is awesome".

I'm not sure how much better that is.

Quote from: Sommerjon;929803Not really.  I just called your misguided belief that you are in any way actually role playing real life.

You just happen to dislike being called on your bullshit.  So, like a child, you lash out.  

You said stupid things, and I called you an idiot for saying them. Thats not lashing out. Your feelings getting hurt is of no concern to me.

QuoteYour proof is; "They can if you want them to."  
Bullshit.

Bullshit indeed, you've mixed up who you are responding to.

I don't need proof. The proof that you have no idea what you are talking about was inherent in your statement about XP. It made it explicitly clear your knowledge of RPGs is so limited that you assume XP is an inherent trait, and anyone that ignorant of role-playing games outside of the D&D paradigm has no worthwhile opinion on what RPGs can or cannot express.

Quoteyou can role-play a caricature or if you prefer a simulacrum or if you prefer approximation of real life, but no you are not role-playing real life.  Sorry dice rolls and having a GM stops any semblance of real life

You can roleplay real people, actual fully developed individuals without being bound to fantasy-based archetypes. Roleplaying isn't real-life, but since no one claimed it is, nothing you've said there is an argument, just a non sequitur.

Quote from: Sommerjon;929693Sorry Bub you don't have a voice over for real life.

I want my voiceover to be Ron Howard.

JG

Quote from: daniel_ream;929869I ran Amber Diceless for two years.  They eventually matured from "The Strength Guy" or "The Advanced Pattern/Psyche Guy" to "Clone of that guy from that show/movie/book I think is awesome".

I'm not sure how much better that is.

They need a longer stretch, possibly much longer, but improvement has already begun:).

Quote from: TristramEvans;929878You said stupid things, and I called you an idiot for saying them. Thats not lashing out. Your feelings getting hurt is of no concern to me.



Bullshit indeed, you've mixed up who you are responding to.

I don't need proof. The proof that you have no idea what you are talking about was inherent in your statement about XP. It made it explicitly clear your knowledge of RPGs is so limited that you assume XP is an inherent trait, and anyone that ignorant of role-playing games outside of the D&D paradigm has no worthwhile opinion on what RPGs can or cannot express.



You can roleplay real people, actual fully developed individuals without being bound to fantasy-based archetypes. Roleplaying isn't real-life, but since no one claimed it is, nothing you've said there is an argument, just a non sequitur.

As I can see from your posts, you're making a fundamental mistake when it comes to classless systems.
Namely, you're debating them with Sommerjon;).

Quote from: AsenRG;929929As I can see from your posts, you're making a fundamental mistake when it comes to classless systems.
Namely, you're debating them with Sommerjon;).

Yeah, fair enough. I have a hard time keeping track of who the trolls are here these days.

Quote from: TristramEvans;929878You said stupid things, and I called you an idiot for saying them. Thats not lashing out. Your feelings getting hurt is of no concern to me.

Stupid thing = believing you are playing real people, actual fully developed individuals.

Quote from: TristramEvans;929878Bullshit indeed, you've mixed up who you are responding to.

I don't need proof. The proof that you have no idea what you are talking about was inherent in your statement about XP. It made it explicitly clear your knowledge of RPGs is so limited that you assume XP is an inherent trait, and anyone that ignorant of role-playing games outside of the D&D paradigm has no worthwhile opinion on what RPGs can or cannot express.

I did?
Let me quote the exchange then.

Quote from: TristramEvans;929632

Quote from: Sommerjon;929597No.

This debate happens because RPGs do not reflect real life.

They can if you want them to. No one is under any obligation to fit their games into your limited conception of what RPGs reflect, and I reject any such limitations put on my gaming. I'll do what I want, game how I want, have fun however I like, and if anyone says I'm "not really playing RPGs" because my games aren't patterned around someone's obsession with D&D or any other single limited viewpoint of what RPGs can be, they can kiss my arse.

Nope, I am quoting your stupid.

Quote from: TristramEvans;929878You can roleplay real people, actual fully developed individuals without being bound to fantasy-based archetypes. Roleplaying isn't real-life, but since no one claimed it is, nothing you've said there is an argument, just a non sequitur.

Tripling down on the stupid, wow I'll give you credit.
I never said anything about being bound to fantasy-based archetypes
You can't roleplay real people without real life.  Since you can't roleplay real life you cannot roleplay real people. You can role-play a caricature or if you prefer a simulacrum or if you prefer approximation of real life(people), but no you are not role-playing real life(people).

Quote from: James Gillen;929885I want my voiceover to be Ron Howard.

JG

I would go with Mike Rowe.

Quote from: Sommerjon;929969Stupid thing = believing you are playing real people, actual fully developed individuals.
...
You can't roleplay real people without real life.  Since you can't roleplay real life you cannot roleplay real people. You can role-play a caricature or if you prefer a simulacrum or if you prefer approximation of real life(people), but no you are not role-playing real life(people).

Huh. Maybe Sommerjon's character class is not just Troll, but a dual-class Troll/Anti-Realism Paladin?

Is he the same doofus who once responded to a thread where I was talking about games where the PC's can't get maimed or killed and not resurrected having "no real risk", by saying that all RPGs have no real risk because the players don't get wounded in reality?

Seems like a similar Troll line to the one he's excreting into this thread.

Maybe he just has the special 2nd-level Troll maneuver: Pretend Word Has Preposterous Other Interpretation.

Quote from: Sommerjon;929969Stupid thing = believing you are playing real people, actual fully developed individuals.

Nah, stupid thing = believing other people are subject to your own mental limitations.

Quote from: TristramEvans;929935Yeah, fair enough. I have a hard time keeping track of who the trolls are here these days.

I don't, they're ILed already. If I don't see the posts, it's probably a troll:).
If I see the posts, it might not be;).

Quote from: Skarg;929987Huh. Maybe Sommerjon's character class is not just Troll, but a dual-class Troll/Anti-Realism Paladin?

Is he the same doofus who once responded to a thread where I was talking about games where the PC's can't get maimed or killed and not resurrected having "no real risk", by saying that all RPGs have no real risk because the players don't get wounded in reality?

Seems like a similar Troll line to the one he's excreting into this thread.

Maybe he just has the special 2nd-level Troll maneuver: Pretend Word Has Preposterous Other Interpretation.

Looks like someone needs their diaper changed.

Quote from: TristramEvans;930008Nah, stupid thing = believing other people are subject to your own mental limitations.

Nah, stupid thing = when you are playing Let's Pretend you are playing real people, actual fully developed individuals.

Looks like you need to learn that when we play Let's Pretend the characters we make up are not actual fully developed individuals.  That the characters, whether PC or NPC, are a caricature or a simulacrum or an approximation or a best guess.