At the behest of our very own Butcher, I'm starting a thread here to discuss the Paladins & Princesses style of fantasy gaming.  Most of us are already familiar with the more grittier roots of fantasy and the inspirations- so we won't discuss that here!  What is considered canon for this style of play?  What games best represent this style of gaming?  What modules, game worlds should be included here?

Right off it has me thinking of the early Disney films and the brighter fairy tales. King Arthur and Charlemagne.
A system that promotes bravery and valor, dissuades greed and 'murder hobos'.
I don't know it well but perhaps Pendragon comes close to that style/sub-genre?

Pendragon is close to Arthurian myths. Disney movies aren't really in the same league, sorry, I wanted to say in the same genre:p!

Question, do you want a system that rewards that style of play, or a system that doesn't prevent it and relies on players' buy-in;)?

When I think of P&P, I think of 2nd edition D&D. That's the edition that went in for a more story-like game. F'rinstance, the "official" change to the xp system, to reward xp for story goals, and individual class themed awards. The tone and art definitley changed as well.

When I think of Paladins and Princesses, I also think of 80's fantasy movies. Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, Ladyhawke, Dragonslayer, Willow, Neverending Story.

I think Dragonlance, the module series and the setting, is pretty iconically Paladins and Princesses. Which also brings up 2nd edition, as Dragonlance came in just a little before 2nd edition launched.

Quote from: Simlasa;928920Right off it has me thinking of the early Disney films and the brighter fairy tales. King Arthur and Charlemagne.
A system that promotes bravery and valor, dissuades greed and 'murder hobos'.
I don't know it well but perhaps Pendragon comes close to that style/sub-genre?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;928925When I think of P&P, I think of 2nd edition D&D. That's the edition that went in for a more story-like game. F'rinstance, the "official" change to the xp system, to reward xp for story goals, and individual class themed awards. The tone and art definitley changed as well.

When I think of Paladins and Princesses, I also think of 80's fantasy movies. Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, Ladyhawke, Dragonslayer, Willow, Neverending Story.

I think Dragonlance, the module series and the setting, is pretty iconically Paladins and Princesses. Which also brings up 2nd edition, as Dragonlance came in just a little before 2nd edition launched.

   As the man who coined the term, I agree with these, although you'd be looking at the more sanitized and romanticized forms of the fairy tales and Arthurian and Charlemagne myths. Dragonlance is solidly P&P in the modules, setting and artwork, but there is one caveat I'd introduce--the Weis & Hickman novels have something of a cynical slant that undermines their usefulness for this genre, especially as they evolve.

Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson.

The Ur-Text of D&D.

As an avid reader of Savage Sword of Conan at the same time I ran BECMI/RC and played AD&D 2e, though murderhoboing is second nature to me as a gamer, I am very much interested in how Paladins & Princesses D&D balances the S&S roots of the game with the high fantasy/fairy-tale elements.

Which is why I'd like to nominate Star Wars as another huge influence. To me, Han Solo was the epitome of the individualist scoundrel thrust into a Good vs. Evil struggle who sides with the good guys when the push comes to shove.

The one other remarkable nominee I have in mind is Philippe Gaston (played by Matthew Broderick) in Ladyhawke (arguably the biggest fantasy flick 'round here in its day).

Oh, anyone here playing Beyond The Wall? How do you like it?

If you are interested in the Paladins & Princess play style, I think you should check 13th Age which can easily acommodate this specific play style. It has Paladins who can work (and better pledge their allegiance) to at least 3 benevolent powerful NPCs called Icons in the game context (The Emperor, the High Priestess and The Great Golden Dragon) and you can easily put princesses (or princes or whatever title that catch the interest of your players) to rescue there.

Quote from: The Butcher;928929Oh, anyone here playing Beyond The Wall? How do you like it?

I got it. Haven't had a chance to play it yet. It's got a lot of interesting ideas, like the character background system.

Zak S once asked what was the appeal of the Paladins & Princesses style on RPGnet, and the resulting thread was interesting:

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?669101-Paladins-amp-Princesses-What-s-the-appeal-for-you

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;928926As the man who coined the term...

...give us a list of your criteria for the genre, a "What is P&P", then we can all be on the same page, or at least have a better frame of reference.

Check out Prince Valiant, published by Chaosium ~30 years ago. Not only is it right down the center of the plate for this subject, but it is also an awesomely creative and well designed game, probably unlike any fantasy roleplaying game you've played.

Quote from: CRKrueger;928954...give us a list of your criteria for the genre, a "What is P&P", then we can all be on the same page, or at least have a better frame of reference.

   Heroic and romantic, in all senses of those terms: Unapologetic good guys, grand quests, bright colors, melodramatic. From my second "Flavors of D&D" thread: "PCs are generally virtuous and altruistic heroes; even those with a mercenary streak tend to be more like Han Solo than Boba Fett or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Combat tends to be dramatic but low on PC lethality. Exploration is about heroic quests, the thrill of discovery and interaction than logistics and resources. Interaction is a central element of this style, and tends to the melodramatic. Worldbuilding is also key, but focused on story and dramatics rather than ‘realism’ or the elaboration of premises."

Touchstones for the feel in my head include Howard Pyle and Hal Foster, the brighter parts of Tolkien and Lewis, fantasy and medieval films of the 30s-60s and 80s (I'm not familiar enough with 70s fantasy to say where it falls), select Disney films, and video games The Legend of Zelda and Dragon Quest. Star Wars IV-VI translates this into a science-fantasy milieu. You could call it "Old Hollywood", "clean", "good-guy" or "noblebright" fantasy (the last term was brought to my attention by YA fantasy author L. Jagi Lamplighter).

D&D referents include Dragonlance (with the caveat about the novels), Elmore art, the general tone of 2nd edition, even moreso the art selection in the For Gold & Glory retroclone, and the kind of D&D described in James Wards' infamous "Angry Mothers from Heck" column in DRAGON #154.

Quote from: Larsdangly;928955Check out Prince Valiant, published by Chaosium ~30 years ago. Not only is it right down the center of the plate for this subject, but it is also an awesomely creative and well designed game, probably unlike any fantasy roleplaying game you've played.

    Agreed-and due for a 2nd full-color edition from Nocturnal in the near future. In fact, even if you missed the Kickstarter, you can still get in on the pre-order here.

Quote from: The Butcher;928929Oh, anyone here playing Beyond The Wall? How do you like it?

I like the character creation more than I do the one in any other OSR game. That's a recommendation that spans dozens of systems, if anyone's asking;)

Combat is, however, bloody. It would be largely improved by adding something like the Stunts from Tunnels&Trolls (or like the Exploits from Low Fantasy, which are halfway between Stunts and Mighty Deeds:p).

Quote from: Larsdangly;928955Check out Prince Valiant, published by Chaosium ~30 years ago. Not only is it right down the center of the plate for this subject, but it is also an awesomely creative and well designed game, probably unlike any fantasy roleplaying game you've played.

OK, I didn't think I'd ever see you recommend a storytelling game, but obviously there's a first time for everything:D!
That said, the reviews are indeed breathtakingly positive so I fully agree that it might be the best option.
For that matter, the whole genre isn't really my style, but this game just might work for it;).

Personally, I'd play this. But I'd rather play it with Under the Moons of Zoon or Zenobia/43 AD/Warband. The settings of UtMoZ is better-suited, but if you apply a romantic approach, you can apply it to anything, Zenobia included. Besides, Zenobia/43 AD does allow you to have a Paladin...in a roundabout way.

Step one, pick a religion that fits your idea of a Paladin. Hell, you can make up your own cult for that:). If any player rolls under 4 for Fate, give them that much. (You'll thank me for it when you visualize the battles:)).
Step two, explain to the players that following its tenets to the letter is the only way to spend your XP:D! (Yes, I'm serious).
Step three, look at the list of magic spells in Warband and re-purpose them for evil sorcerers. Now your paladins and princesses have antagonists! Don't worry about class balance: the spells are meant to be used by antagonists;).