Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923955Then again I also know white women who stalk black cosplayers to make sure they're black. .

um....what do they do when they catch them?

QuoteOct 6 2016

Girls Can Play Too!!

Greg Vaughan, Frog God Games

They already were, you fucking retard.



This is a condesending, participation award on the vaginas of "girl gamers" for showing up.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923955It's rather maddening.

They're definitely generating controversy on purpose.  Here's an article titled "The Changing Face of the OSR"

Quote from: linked article with cover pics removedYesterday the Swords & Wizardry Complete 3rd Printing Kickstarter launched. For reasons there has been talk about its cover:

The cover is a major departure from the last printing, which featured an Erol Otus original:

The Otus cover speaks strongly to me, but the change has me reflecting on the change in the OSR. We've gone from the original Labyrinth Lord:

To the art book that is Maze of the Blue Medusa:

Okay, that's enough showing pictures. I think it illustrates the basic point, which is that there is a shift afoot in the OSR away from old TSR and toward a very different and current aesthetic.

As much as I like the Otus cover for S&W Complete, it's a cover that ties the game back to TSR. As much as it's a fresh piece, it has intentional echoes of the cover for the Moldvay Basic box - and that leaves it in what is now effectively the OSR's past. Fewer and fewer OSR modules feel the need to consciously emulate TSR's look and feel, and Lamentations of the Flame Princess has been the leader here.

By severing the TSR connection, Swords & Wizardry has a chance to be its own game. I think that's particularly important for S&W to move forward, since effectively Frog God has just treated it as one of several options along with Pathfinder and 5e D&D. It doesn't have a strong identity, and if it could gain one outside of bog-standard fantasy, I think that would be a wonderful thing.

Look at the Kickstarter, by the way - the layout of the book is also getting a radical overhaul. I'm most excited for monster illustrations by Gennifer Bone, the artist who worked with Rafael Chandler on Lusus Naturae. Gennifer is one of the most exciting artists in the OSR right now, and I'd recommend you back her on Patreon.

It's kind of a funny coincidence to me that my recent game, set in the megadungeon I am slowly working on, used Swords & Wizardry Complete. More than any other OSR system, S&W really benefits from a strong vision on the referee's part, and I think giving the book a new look and adventures outside of the Gygaxo-Arnesonian tradition is a move toward that. LotFP, after all, is not far off from B/X D&D in the text of the rules but the actual play experience is far different. I'd like to see where Swords & Wizardry can go.

Stacy linked to this article like so: "Coverage! On making the OSR more than just nostalgia."  Nowhere in that article is the word nostalgia.  The author is talking about moving away from the TSR aesthetic so that the S&W rules can get their own identity like Pathfinder, etc...  Nowhere in that article is there the idea that "up to now, the OSR was just nostalgia, but now here comes the new version that makes it about more than that."

When people complained about the line, Stacy said to take it up with the author of the article.  A little disingenuous I think, because the "synopsis" is clearly not the same idea conveyed by the article, that meaning was wholly invented by Stacy.

So again, poking the hornet's nest to gain traction with the anti-OSR crowd, while denying that's what they're doing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;923824Well, here's my thoughts on the subject.

Damn, that's some amazing interior art.

Which makes the vague, unevocative cover all the more frustrating.

Quote from: The Butcher;924029Damn, that's some amazing interior art.

Which makes the vague, unevocative cover all the more frustrating.

Yeah the art is cool.  I found out a friend of mine was thinking about S&W, so I backed it to get him a copy.  I think he'll like it.

The more they explain, the more I would feel a little offended if I were a woman. It's funny how often explicit identity politics insults its supposed beneficiaries the process of 'helping'.

Quote from: Greg VaughanMy point is that for as pervasive as it became culturally, it was definitely having an awkward time fitting in. And while by no means does that mean that girls didn't ever play, it does mean that its core fan base was a mostly homogeneous shade of white, male, and possibly a little weird.

Quote from: Greg VaughanThe old guys who have made this a part of our lives since the early days when it could mean getting laughed at in school or forbidden from playing by well-meaning parents scared by all the media attention over it or even now when it can mean confused looks by folks who have no idea what you're talking about or possibly derision from those who assume that playing this game means some sort of specific political or gender bias...again because of all the media attention.

Why am I uncomfortably reminded of the Little Red Hen? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Hen)

I mean, what he's basically saying and implying is...
Greg: "Back when this hobby started there was a social risk to participating in it, so of course it was mostly men. I mean that's only natural, amirite? Women are far less likely to take risks, especially social ones. So, now that most of the risk is gone we want to do more to encourage these shy, fragile, skittish creatures to participate."

Quote from: Greg VaughanHowever you feel about issues like Gamergate, it was definitely a thing that occurred and did a whole lot more dividing than unifying.

I'll give him credit for using a diplomatic tone here. He's actually taking a risk.

Quote from: Greg VaughanFor a game specifically designed around group interaction, collective imagining, and teamwork, the industry hasn't always gone out of its way to foster those sorts of things.

Unless he's using the words 'group interaction', 'collective imagining', and 'teamwork' as code for something else I have to strongly disagree that the industry hasn't gone out of its way to foster those sorts of things. Perhaps he confused the industry with the segment of consumers who have narrow preferences and closed groups?

Moving away from what Greg said for a moment to quote Tristram Evans:

Quote from: TristramEvansThe only critique it raises from me is that I simply don't see how having an all-girl artistic team will actually draw in a female audience that otherwise wouldn't be incline towards this sort of game.

You're right, unless you believe women are some vastly different alien species who just "do art" in ways that send out subtle female signals, none of the art we've seen in this book so far, nice as it is, would intrinsically draw new women specifically in. So the only draw must be...

Quote from: Greg VaughanAnd when you raise a flag for a new group of onlookers if it looks just like the flag that you've always raised, then whatever preconceived notions they may already have will remain intact. But if the flag looks different, well then it might garner a second look.

The 'flag' is not the nice-but-generic-fantasy art. The 'flag' is not the absolutely typical hack-and-slash game. Nothing so substantial. It's the loud announcement of SEGREGATED ALL-WOMAN TEAM!

Again, as a woman I would feel insulted. And as one of the MANY women who have already worked and been working in the industry for decades I'd perhaps feel a little bit erased by the implication that there's something significant about this.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;924031Again, as a woman I would feel insulted. And as one of the MANY women who have already worked and been working in the industry for decades I'd perhaps feel a little bit erased by the implication that there's something significant about this.

There is a lot of erasure of women in identity politics. It's pretty fucking frustrating to see "opinion pieces" talking about women as if they just arrived on the planet yesterday.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;924039There is a lot of erasure of women in identity politics. It's pretty fucking frustrating to see "opinion pieces" talking about women as if they just arrived on the planet yesterday.

Yeah.  One of the first groups I actually gamed with as a teenager was mostly women.  Even my first FLGS where I was playing Warhammer Fantasy had women playing the game.  Still quite a bit at the places I go.  Not sure how that translates to creators, but I'm pretty sure I could find a few womens' names in the books.

Amazing, though- don't see many complaints about how few men there are writing for Cosmo.

Quote from: RPGPundit;923826First, it was Frog God's idea.

People keep saying this, but the Black Gate recently reported that "Designer and RPGer Stacy Dellorfano had suggested to Finch that Frog God print a new version of the S&W rules, but with art and design done entirely by women. Within minutes, Finch and Bill Webb were on board and the project moved ahead." The KS itself only says that FG "engaged" her, which is not inconsistent with what Black Gate reported, and the Black Gate comments sound too specific not to have come straight from someone involved.

Also ran across this in the comments at Tenkar's Tavern back in May, Finch says, "Frog God doesn't have a political or social agenda here, although I'm sure Stacy and Chris see this project as having a beneficial approach in those terms."

Quote from: daniel_ream;924011Exactly.  There's a whole lot of question-begging going on.  I have yet to see any evidence that anyone but a vocal identity politics activist thinks there's a problem with the OSR.

I'd kind of like someone to do some metrics on this KS once it's completed, showing the percentage of female backers and backers under, say, 30 compared to their previous Kickstarters.

Surely if this marketing stunt is successful, FGG would want to trumpet the undoubtedly vast increase in those demographics.

I'd definitely be interested in seeing some hard numbers. I'm not sure they would say what you want them to say. You start by raising the question of whether FGG really believes there is a problem with OSR games reaching women. Then you suggest looking at hard numbers.

However, if this project fails to bring in women gamers, the doesn't prove or disprove whether their intentions were honest. It simply meant it failed to bring in women gamers. Did it fail to bring in women because women aren't drawn in by art by women? Did it fail because women aren't into S&W?

Also, if you dig into the backer demographics and find that hardly any women gamers are backing OSR products, doesn't that support Stacy's original premise that OSR games haven't done a great job of attracting women gamers?

I think Pundit overstates the case in saying the age of retroclones is over. My 10 year old nephew thinks his copy of Labyrinth Lord if pretty cool. It's definitely getting to be a pretty tapped out market though. FGG has to be running low on grognards to sell S&W to. I can't really see anything at all wrong with trying to find a new publicity tactic to keep selling the same old product to new people. I think it is pretty clever the way they have played guys like Spinchcat into promoting their game as well. I'm sure some of the pledges were driven by this thread. It's a smart play all around.

As for Stacy pulling some scam with this, she had to be the designer and hire the artists. I've had a friend that did RPG art direction and he aged like a US president while doing it. It's stressful work, not easy money. And speaking of the money, she is making RPG money. She would have made more money with the time and effort she put in if it had been applied in almost any other field. And as Pundit pointed out, there is some really nice art in there. She did a stressful job for in a low-paying field and did it well. Nothing about this feels like a scam for easy money. I find it hard to believe she would be putting in the time on this without at least some dedication to the product being made. Nobody is here to sponge off the lavish RPG gravy train.  

And, at the end of the day, it puts more money in FGGs pocket that they will turn around use towards their next product, which will probably be some safe, cozy OSR comfort food for the old folks to gum on. Just take your pills, have a nap, and there will be something along on Kickstarter that is more to your taste by the time you wake up.

Quote from: TristramEvans;923544All that aside, the difference between good and bad art in an rpg specifically, from my personal POV, is whether the art is inspirational and either tells a story or presents a situation that draws one into the spirit or world of the game, technical ability aside. The art presented here is technically adequate, but it doesn't lure me into the gameworld in any way.

This is pretty sensible to me. As a marketer, the purpose of a cover image, splash screen or whatever is the face of the product has to sell the product. It is entirely reasonable that a piece of work that isn't entirely abstract should, as closely as possible, be a good representation of the utility (use, feeling, experience) of the product. Relating to a game world / default campaign certainly fits with utility.

Also as a marketer, I think about how that face actually draws people to the product in a retail environment as well. A crisp, highly contrasting color image that draws the eye -- well, draws eyes! A dull, low contrast image, in which interesting details are lost because of color choices (and medium), leaving you with a sort of funny, unclear representation of what its supposed to be from 5'-10' away (depending on your need of eye ware) is a poor choice. You also have to consider that RPG books if displayed are going to appear next to each other, and if your book doesn't call attention to itself when compared to others, how likely is someone going to pick it up, unless they already know what the product is to begin with?

As an aside, in my first year in college, I was taking a creative writing course and a design course, and I suggested to both teachers that the design course did an image, and the creative writing course would write a story based on one of the images (so each artist would get matched to a writer). The end result was interesting, because most of the artists responded to the stories with "that's not what the image represents". They completely missed the point that the assignment had nothing to do with their personal therapy, and its not the viewer's job to 'figure out' what the artist is trying to communicate. A viewer arrives at conclusions based on what they see. If the viewer goes in another direction, it is the artist that fails.  Instructors in both classes were very clear about that. Whining that 'you are not educated enough to get what I am communicating' is an amateurish, narcissistic child squeal.

Over on Google+, Stacy said she didn't mean the "nostalgia" shot as deliberate, so I take her at her word.  I think a lot of us just might be a little too sensitive.  Not every change is an assault on all we hold dear about gaming, and everyone doesn't have a hidden agenda with every piece of ad copy.

Quote from: Baulderstone;924065I'm not sure they would say what you want them to say.

I don't want them to say anything.  I want to know what they do say.

QuoteHowever, if this project fails to bring in women gamers, the doesn't prove or disprove whether their intentions were honest. It simply meant it failed to bring in women gamers. Did it fail to bring in women because women aren't drawn in by art by women? Did it fail because women aren't into S&W?

There is an old saw in marketing that goes "I know 50% of my marketing budget is being wasted; I just don't know which 50%."  This is no longer true.  The tools and models exist to analyze what does and doesn't bring in customers with a high degree of accuracy.  If FGG were actually interested in determining what brings women into the hobby (also, apparently I'm the only one who noticed that the goalposts shifted from "women" to "women and younger, modern gamers" somewhere along the way), they could have done some simple A/B testing.  Let people pick new edition or Otis reprint when making their pledge.  From there, you know whether the new edition was worth it.

QuoteAlso, if you dig into the backer demographics and find that hardly any women gamers are backing OSR products, doesn't that support Stacy's original premise that OSR games haven't done a great job of attracting women gamers?

That's not her premise.  Her premise is that this is a problem that needs solving.  That's purely subjective.  What can be measured is whether this "solution" actually fixes anything.

And I'm not even getting into the subtleties of opportunity costs here.

QuoteShe would have made more money with the time and effort she put in if it had been applied in almost any other field.

I've seen her Linkedin history.  I think that's a debatable point.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;924031Again, as a woman I would feel insulted.

The ne plus ultra of mansplaining.

Quote from: Black VulmeaThe ne plus ultra of mansplaining.

Dear Black Vulmea,

Dismissing my concerns about patronizing manipulative attitudes towards women with a blatantly sexist term. Nice.

You post here a half-dozen times since forever, and your two most recent contributions take either implicit or overt swipes at me. Why? What the fuck did I do to you?

No, never mind, better question, what's the point? Like you said in another thread, this site's too stupid for you now anyway, right? What possible good can come from poking a moron caveman inferior GM like me? A cheap dopamine rush? Is that the best use of your time?

Or wait, do you see this as some resounding blow for enlightened discourse or feminism? Like, thank goodness you were there on some shitty nothing forum full of idiots to swing in like a swashbuckling white knight and humiliate a neanderthal with a well-timed six-word post?

Fuck off Vulmea, You're wasting precious minutes of your life on people far beneath you. Go back to your rather excellent blog (and I'm honest about that, I've found it quite useful).

Or shit, come back and stick around just to spite me, whatever. We can trade barbs for a while and you will be the smug victor, get more of that sweet troll dopamine, and I'll leave the forum mildly irritated because it isn't worth fighting over. That'll feel real good, won't it? An excellent use of your time.

Curiously awaiting your nasty reply, evasion, or total disappearance,

- Shipyard Locked