Question though.
Who is doing more (or all) of the crowing about the "all women" part?
Contessa? FGG? the SJW?

Quote from: TristramEvans;923327Wait , they went from these awesome covers...
...to a picture of a shrivelled vagina?

I guess Georgia O'Keeffe and Carroll Dunham weren't available to paint a cover.

Quote from: daniel_ream;923334

• Claim X is problematic
• Stir up Internet Outrage Machine against X
• Tell X things would be better if only they hired unproblematic accuser to fix things
• Profit

...is such a common con that I'm surprised anyone is still falling for it.

+1 this

Quote from: Gwarh;923919+1 this

Though it seems like +1 this didnt happen?

Sounds more like FGG contacted Contessa and then played it up?

Quote from: darthfozzywig;923500Would have been funnier if they made the ampersand in S&W look like a "J".

HUGE +1 to this

Quote from: RPGPundit;923826First, it was Frog God's idea.

I keep seeing people say this, but I am 100% sure I read a post where Matt Finch said that Stacy reached out to him first. Yes, I realize the KS says "we engaged Stacy as a designer" and "We asked Stacy to put together an all-woman team," but I think that the original post that pre-dated these been scrubbed to be quite honest. I will keep looking.

I think some of the font and color choices are downright dire and the cover too abstract to communicate a brand identity, but that's about it. And honestly the cover wouldn't be that big a deal if people didn't keep making a big deal about it. Not like they used Poser art or anything.

Oh wait, this is about the politics, isn't it?

Quote from: TristramEvans;923327...to a picture of a shrivelled vagina?

...

can't...unsee... >_<

Quote from: TristramEvans;923544All that aside, the difference between good and bad art in an rpg specifically, from my personal POV, is whether the art is inspirational and either tells a story or presents a situation that draws one into the spirit or world of the game, technical ability aside.

Have to agree.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;923760TSR's 1994 catalog claimed that Ravenloft did have a higher number of female fans than the typical AD&D setting.

Wait, you mean the line with all the Clyde Caldwell art?

Quote from: Omega;923330Wouldnt it be better to, oh... I dont know... maybee add more GOOD creators? Rather than hiring someone based on their plumbing?

Yes, but many good creators are kept out of the market for superficial reasons. How can you address that while not going too far in creating opportunities specifically for them?

Quote from: jhkim;923359I expect, however, that controversy over the new artwork will generate a lot of discussion and attention and thus generate sales.

The heavy focus on the cover in the pitch suggests that's the intent.

Quote from: daniel_ream;923405Is there any evidence that anyone but Stacy Dellorfano thinks that the OSR has a bad reputation among women, or that their physical appearance and presentation doesn’t have nearly as much appeal to younger or female gamers?

Sorta. At least you'll find far more women playing 'indie' RPGs than OSR titles if you peruse the actual plays on YouTube.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;923619Amusingly, my mother is connected to the world of quilting and has mentioned that a small but influential influx of men into that hobby over the past decade has changed it... for the worse in her opinion. These men are apparently highly competitive and win a disproportionate number of quilting competitions. This then pushes everyone else to either become 'uncomfortably' competitive to keep up or withdraw a little from the scene.

Hard core gamers ruin everything

Seriously though, this is a perfect example of how people can change a culture through what they value and prioritize. For most women, knitting is a relaxing diversion that gives them a chance to socialize or disengage and make nice things for other people. I doubt the men you describe share the same priorities, and their participation actually does make those other priorities more difficult to achieve. It's like trying to RP on a PVP server.

Exclusion and boundaries are not prejudicial as long as everybody is getting what they want/need.

Quote from: Teodrik;923655Sure FGG have every right to do their businesses as they plearse, but blatantly say right in the face of their fans that people with their plumbing, age and sensibilities, even only implied, are from now on no longer a target group for the next rerelease of their in-house game is bound the get some disagreement.

That's not what they said at all. Please quote me where you're getting that.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;923661The fact that the OP mixes the topic of hiring an all-female staff, and the topic of the quality and attractiveness of the cover muddles this conversation. Two different things that deserve their own consideration.

Can't blame the OP though, as FGG is kinda muddling that conversation themselves.

Quote from: yosemitemike;923724I never thought about the genders of the people in the credits listing to begin with.  I barely looked at them at all.  If I had looked, I would not have concluded that the hobby was somehow less for women if I didn't see enough female names.  I don't understand this mindset to begin with.

Neither do I, but it does have an effect.

Quote from: yosemitemike;923724Do women go through credits, count people with female names and think, "This is not for me.  I am excluded" if they don't count enough of them?  Is this really an issue at all?

Sadly it is.

Then again I also know white women who stalk black cosplayers to make sure they're black. So perhaps my sample group is a bit extreme.

Quote from: Ulairi;923728I'm canceling my pledge after the latest Kickstarter update. It's obvious to me that this is an identity politics play more than just a cool product. The reason I think this is because they sure are spending a lot of time talking about how progressive and how many barriers they are breaking down compared to any discussion on how they will actually reach new gamers, younger gamers, and more women.

Yes, and they're being exceedingly dishonest about it.

You don't put statements like "Unfortunately, we think there may be some controversy about the fact that the design team here is made up entirely of women." unless you're trying to court said controversy (if it exists at all) to leverage it. At the very least you make such statements at the end of your pitch. Then we're told how the project isn't about taking a political position in an update which is nothing but taking a political position.

It's rather maddening.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923955Neither do I, but it does have an effect.

How much of an effect on who?  If it slightly influences one person, it could be said to have an effect.    

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923955Sadly it is.

Then again I also know white women who stalk black cosplayers to make sure they're black. So perhaps my sample group is a bit extreme.

Is it really or are there just some very vocal, identity politics obsessed people who want to make it one?

Quote from: estar;923842Well there is your ludicrous assertion that there is or was ever a OSR Taliban. Dude, there is no fucking OSR Taliban

And yet, for people who don't exist, they sure did a good job of spending much of last week fighting with me on Twitter and G+.

Quote from: S'mon;923852I meant SD's "Why does the OSR have a problem with women?" statement from a while back. It was a verbal attack. OK it's not on the level of "Clyde Caldwell must never work in this industry again!" type SJW stuff.

I think it was more of a legitimate question; the "problem with women" being actually a question about why weren't more women playing OSR games.

Quote from: Omega;923883You missed the fact that some are just annoyed with the proclamations.

Yes, there were some people who had that reaction.

QuoteSimilar happened with HeroQuest 25th when the designers started pushing Spanish nationalism.

Wait.. what?!

Quote from: RPGPundit;924007I think it was more of a legitimate question; the "problem with women" being actually a question about why weren't more women playing OSR games.

How do we know they arent?

Quote from: Omega;924009How do we know they arent?

Exactly.  There's a whole lot of question-begging going on.  I have yet to see any evidence that anyone but a vocal identity politics activist thinks there's a problem with the OSR.

I'd kind of like someone to do some metrics on this KS once it's completed, showing the percentage of female backers and backers under, say, 30 compared to their previous Kickstarters.

Surely if this marketing stunt is successful, FGG would want to trumpet the undoubtedly vast increase in those demographics.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923955You don't put statements like "Unfortunately, we think there may be some controversy about the fact that the design team here is made up entirely of women." unless you're trying to court said controversy (if it exists at all) to leverage it. At the very least you make such statements at the end of your pitch. Then Stacy tells us how the project isn't about taking a political position in an update which is nothing but taking a political position.

It's rather maddening.

To be fair, Update #3 was written by Greg Vaughn, Stacy had just linked to it on G+.

Also on G+ they were talking about how Venger Satanis and others were responding.  I posted this:

Quote from: meFirst, the interior art is just awesome.  You want to expand to new markets, you need new people, that's just a fact.  How a company gains new customers without alienating old ones is a question every business asks itself.  Since this game is 100% the same, only with different art, the shift could have been described as moving away from the "TSR Aesthetic", "1980's style art", etc.  It was not.  It was described specifically as trying to target someone other than "40 year old guys who've been gaming since forever".  If 40 year old guys who have been gaming since forever take that a little personally, well, you kind of poked them a little bit, didn't you?  "Making the OSR more than just nostalgia?"  Come on, if you're gonna take jabs, at least own it and not pretend to be shocked when people respond.  Shaking things up is good.  Pretending you're not trying to, isn't.

QuoteOct 6 2016

Girls Can Play Too!!

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"NO GURLS ALOWED!"

It's the sign posted on pretty much every childhood clubhouse ever depicted in 20th-century media from Norman Rockwell to Saturday morning cartoons. Yeah, it's a cliche kind of fallen by the wayside now, but I grew up in the 20th century so it still strikes a chord with me. I and my friends in grade school did have a clubhouse (more of a commandeered tool shed really), and though it didn't have that sign it definitely shared that sentiment. Girls were gross, snakes and toads and slimy things were cool, and you confused the two at your own peril. Inevitably we grew out of that sort of thinking so that by junior high we had decided that maybe girls weren't quite so bad and by high school and college reached the conclusion that they were quite good really. We put a mindset aside and matured into adults that could see past our immediate insecurities towards the "strange and unfamiliar." It's all a part of growing up, really.

You know what else grew up in the 20th century? Roleplaying games. Dungeons & Dragons arrived on the scene in the mid-1970s, close on the heels of Chainmail before that, and proved to be one of those rare cases where there really was something new under the sun. Nothing quite like it had ever been seen before and, despite being a sort of niche hobby, proved to be extremely culturally influential. I was introduced to the game in 1979 and have been hooked ever since. But like the pre-adolescent boys many of us were, the game and the many derivatives it spawned had some awkward growing years, relegated to the shadowy corners of parent's basements, late-night dorm rooms, and the funny-smelling backrooms of bookstores.

 Its fans were dedicated because they had to be. When exposed to the light day (i.e. mass media, parent, and religious attention) it quickly became glossed over as nerdy, corrupting, promoting suicide and psychosis, or even Satanic! Ah, the 80s. How dull life would have been without Ninja Turtles and underground gaming...but I digress. My point is that for as pervasive as it became culturally, it was definitely having an awkward time fitting in. And while by no means does that mean that girls didn't ever play, it does mean that its core fan base was a mostly homogeneous shade of white, male, and possibly a little weird.

So why are we having this conversation? Is this new printing of the the Swords & Wizardry rulebook (a retroclone of the original 1970s iteration of the game, in case you're wondering) just a backlash against four decades (Four decades!?! Geez, I'm old.) of homogeneity? A way to stick it to the Man (in gaming terms)? Absolutely not.

I love the way Bill and Stacy and Matt put together the concept and explanation for this Kickstarter. This isn't to poke a stick in the eye of hardcore fans who are as old or nearly as old as I and have stuck with this hobby for all these years. This isn't to say thanks for playing, but we've moved on. By no means is that the case. When I look at Frog God Games I see me. It's people like me, like us. The old guys who have made this a part of our lives since the early days when it could mean getting laughed at in school or forbidden from playing by well-meaning parents scared by all the media attention over it or even now when it can mean confused looks by folks who have no idea what you're talking about or possibly derision from those who assume that playing this game means some sort of specific political or gender bias...again because of all the media attention.

But the game has grown; the fan base has grown; society has grown. We have to admit that there are terrible things said and done over the internet and that it has impacted the RPG industry. However you feel about issues like Gamergate, it was definitely a thing that occurred and did a whole lot more dividing than unifying. Sure that example was specifically regarding the video game industry, but most of the world wouldn't really even know to differentiate between the video game and a tabletop roleplaying game industries. There is certainly a lot of crossover in the market.

For a game specifically designed around group interaction, collective imagining, and teamwork, the industry hasn't always gone out of its way to foster those sorts of things. We too easily fall into the familiar, into our comfort zones, and forget that there's a universe beyond those borders. And tabletop roleplaying may be an awesome thing for a lot of people out in that larger universe too who, for myriad reasons, may not even be aware of its existence.

Being richer in diversity than in uniformity has been shown in everything from genetics to the stock market. It's true for gaming too. You can make new friends without kicking out or stomping all over the old. The world we live in tries to put everything into a binary: good/evil, bad/good, right/wrong, new/old. I'm not going to try and say that binaries don't exist, but a lot of binaries are put in place because it's just easier to keep track of or form an opinion on something if it can be polarized into opposite camps. Well, I can assure you that the 3rd printing of the Swords & Wizardry rulebook is not in the binary business. Heck, as a company Frog God Games won't even make a statement about a "best" game system; we produce our game books under three different rule systems (Swords & Wizardry is just one of them) because we believe its about the shared experience, and our goal from the beginning has been to reach as many gamers as possible regardless of their favorite form of the game.

So this Kickstarter -- this project -- isn't about taking a political position or initiating gender wars or telling someone what to like or how to play a game or what sort of style and format makes a game book better or worse; each of you will have your own opinions on that. Rather it's about raising a flag that says, "Hey! There's a cool game here! Come check it out; buy the book; heck, even download the rules for free if you like." And when you raise a flag for a new group of onlookers if it looks just like the flag that you've always raised, then whatever preconceived notions they may already have will remain intact. But if the flag looks different, well then it might garner a second look.

The clubhouse is here. It hasn't had the "No Gurls" sign on it for many, many years. Maybe it never did. But the perceived notion of the sign has been there for a long time in much of the public subconscious, right or wrong, fair or unfair. So with this project we're putting an actual sign on our clubhouse. A new sign that may be saying something that was true since the beginning but hadn't always been communicated well to the uninitiated:

"Everybody welcome! Come on in and play."

Greg Vaughan, Frog God Games

So...it's advertising copy. It doesn't offend me in any way, It doesn't raise my hackles regarding SJW horribleness or anything, but it doesn't sell me on the game, which is fine, because as I said before , I know I'm not the target audience. I've expressed my doubts already that this is actually really an issue outside of the perceptions of some online reactionists, but I've nothing against a game either attempting to be "inclusive" or targeting a specific demographic that I'm not a part of. The only critique it raises from me is that I simply don't see how having an all-girl artistic team will actually draw in a female audience that otherwise wouldn't be incline towards this sort of game. Yeah, I think the cover is kinda schlock 90s throwback pseudo-avant garde, but the inside art looks just fine - just no different from the inside art of any 100s of other fantasy RPGs done by men or mixed gender artists. Is the novelty of the artist's gender in some way a draw for women? I can't say.

In general I just can't stand advertising copy, because I hate pandering. Invoking gamergate? Bringing up some "No girls allowed" clubhouse tropes that haven't been relevant since The Little Rascals? It all just kinda makes me roll my eyes. But advertising works (on most people anyways), so I can't really criticise whatever their choice for the most effective way they can pimp their game.

I disagree with the assertion of Pundit and other's that the older covers were only liked by people, "because they looked old". There is no nostalgia element for me in that regard; I didn't play OD&D or AD&D until after 2nd edition came out. Nostalgia for me would be John Blanche, Elmore, or Caldwell. I found these covers engaged my imagination because 1) they portray a feeling of a fantasy world that is unique in comparison to almost any other fantasy RPG on the shelves these days, 2) they actually show fantasy type people of the non-anime or superheroic variety having adventures in a fantasy environment, and 3) though the style is simplistic (one could even say crude), it evokes the feeling of old fairy tales and fantasy from a simpler time, resembling nothing so much as the sort of illustrations that might have graced the pages of a collection of Hans Christian Anderson or Tolkien's original illustrations for The Hobbit.

But those covers still exist, if I wanted to I could go out and grab the game with those covers. An I won't. Because I have no interest in the system.

Anyways, if there's much "outrage" going on regarding this topic, it doesn't seem to be taking place in this thread. I don't use google+ so I'm probably missing out on all the juicy  bits.