Quote from: Doc Sammy;923701I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill on this one.

Or just pointing and laughing at something stupid-ish.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;923702Welp, if it stomps around like an identity politics ideologue and trumpets like an identity politics ideologue...

Pretty much.  There's an awful lot of crimestop going on in this thread.

Quote from: Teodrik;923655And doing so FGG puts themselves in the forefront (within the OSR niche) of a culture war that  the OSR have for many gamers been a haven from, since it has mainly been about love for the hobby and the games themselves rather pushing agendas

Ah... light bulb moment... now I understand Stacy's "Why does the OSR hate women?" comment (paraphrasing!). The SJW movement absolutely cannot allow any havens, any neutral Tanelorns. Once the OSR was identified as a haven it had to be attacked.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;923637Whether that caused more women to join the hobby, no idea. I think for me, as a guy in high school it probably made me feel like women were more a part of the hobby than if the names on the books were all men, but not sure).

I never thought about the genders of the people in the credits listing to begin with.  I barely looked at them at all.  If I had looked, I would not have concluded that the hobby was somehow less for women if I didn't see enough female names.  I don't understand this mindset to begin with.  If there aren't enough in the credits listing for games that means the games aren't for women and female players are somehow excluded from the hobby?  What?  Do you go through a game book, count the number of people who seem to have the same plumbing as you based on their names and then conclude it's not for you and you are excluded from participating in that game if that number isn't high enough?  Does anyone beyond a few identity politics obsessed SJW types do this?    Do women go through credits, count people with female names and think, "This is not for me.  I am excluded" if they don't count enough of them?  Is this really an issue at all?

They say this is supposed to appeal more to women while still appealing to men.  Why does an all female staff deliver that while an all male staff doesn't or can't?  Women can write for a general audience but men can only write for other men?  That seems to be assumed in a lot of this.  You need women to make the game inclusive but having only women doesn't make it exclusive.  Why?  Why do women equal inclusion while men equal exclusion?  

Quote from: danbuter;923645You have very poor taste.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;923667And to get us back on topic, I don't see what the big deal is about FGG hiring a female developer for the new game.

People are sick of the constant virtue signaling and More-Progressive-Than-Thou crap.  It got old a long time ago.

Quote from: yosemitemike;923724People are sick of the constant virtue signaling and More-Progressive-Than-Thou crap.  It got old a long time ago.

I agree with you on that, but as long as the S&W core game remains the same content-wise, I really don't care if the developers put on idiotic covers and attempt to pander to the SJW crowd.

I'm canceling my pledge after the latest Kickstarter update. It's obvious to me that this is an identity politics play more than just a cool product. The reason I think this is because they sure are spending a lot of time talking about how progressive and how many barriers they are breaking down compared to any discussion on how they will actually reach new gamers, younger gamers, and more women. Other than the fact there is a woman project maker and women artists and I guess step 3 is new audience that wouldn't play before? No discussion on trying to speak to younger gamers or do a promotional push towards different gamers.

I dont like the constant virtue signaling with this printing. Let the bears pay the bear tax I'll pay the Homer tax.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;923725I agree with you on that, but as long as the S&W core game remains the same content-wise, I really don't care if the developers put on idiotic covers and attempt to pander to the SJW crowd.

I don't care about a D&D retroclone at all but I can understand why some people might find this sort of thing annoying and say so.

Quote from: yosemitemike;923732I don't care about a D&D retroclone at all but I can understand why some people might find this sort of thing annoying and say so.

Fair point

I posted on the update over on Kickstarter and have a feeling I'll get murdered in the comments

Quote from: yosemitemike;923724I never thought about the genders of the people in the credits listing to begin with.  I barely looked at them at all.  If I had looked, I would not have concluded that the hobby was somehow less for women if I didn't see enough female names.  I don't understand this mindset to begin with.  If there aren't enough in the credits listing for games that means the games aren't for women and female players are somehow excluded from the hobby?  What?  Do you go through a game book, count the number of people who seem to have the same plumbing as you based on their names and then conclude it's not for you and you are excluded from participating in that game if that number isn't high enough?  Does anyone beyond a few identity politics obsessed SJW types do this?    Do women go through credits, count people with female names and think, "This is not for me.  I am excluded" if they don't count enough of them?  Is this really an issue at all?.

You are reading way too much into my post. It had nothing to do with looking through the credits and tallying the number of women. I always read the credits because the best way to find good books was to find the names of people who wrote stuff you like, then look for more of their stuff. Some of the big names when Ravenloft was out were, we female. My point was, at the time, since it was mostly guys I was gaming with, seeing women's names on the cover made it seem like it was a hobby that probably appealed to plenty of women as well. When I first got into the hobby, it seriously didn't occur to many of us that women played because most of the groups we saw were all guys (that changed about midway through highshool).

S&W is a dying product. The need to buy generic fantasy clones set in a generic fantasy world has passed. This latest KS for an SjW version is a shameless, desperate attempt reinvigorate it via identity politics (or at least milk it one last time before it's put out of its misery).

Also, the cover sucks because... wait for it... the cover sucks. Doesn't have anything to do with the artist's plumbing.

Quote from: S'mon;923600That seems fair enough - so then it's a way to get SJW inclined gamers (mostly male, I suspect) to give the company some money, for very little work.

Exactly. I have seen S&W many times before, but it hasn't caught my attention like LotFP or DCC RPG for example, both of which have put particularly strong stamps on the same basic system. But my group actually had a fairly long discussion about S&W primarily because of the cover. That counts for something.

I don't like the cover, but I don't think the cover of any game has ever made a difference in how it plays.

Quote from: Wraith;923747S&W is a dying product.

This doesn't ring particularly true to me. I am assuming a lot of the strong reactions to the cover are because people like the line. When I asked around several months back for a good all purpose retroclone, S&W was the one that consistently came up across all camps. And I don't think retroclones themselves are dead.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;923750This doesn't ring particularly true to me. I am assuming a lot of the strong reactions to the cover are because people like the line. When I asked around several months back for a good all purpose retroclone, S&W was the one that consistently came up across all camps. And I don't think retroclones themselves are dead.

I didn't say it was a dying game, but I'm not sure it has much life left as a product that people will buy. You can get the previous PDF for free and print it yourself, at home or more professionally. Same exact text and game content as the SjW version. For what it's worth, the Otus version KS raised almost twice the money as the SjW version at this point in its campaign. Check Kicktraq.

Quote from: Wraith;923751I didn't say it was a dying game, but I'm not sure it has much life left as a product that people will buy. You can get the previous PDF for free and print it yourself, at home or more professionally. Same exact text and game content as the SjW version. For what it's worth, the Otus version KS raised almost twice the money as the SjW version at this point in its campaign. Check Kicktraq.

I am not saying this Kickstarter is more successful than previous ones they've done (no idea how this project has been recieved across the board). It may well be this new cover fails to bring in more new people than the people it loses (again, no idea). I just don't think it is a dying line. Having stuff up for free just means they are probably treating the core game content as a loss leader.