Quote from: Headless;922416Sorry I'm late to the fighter ace party.  

The Aces were effective because they were trying to kill people and all their targets were just flying around.  

Plenty of others were as good at  marks manship, or piloting but they didn't have the will to kill people.   So those guys just flew around until they got killed.

https://www.amazon.ca/Combat-Psychology-Physiology-Deadly-Conflict/dp/0964920549

My source.

That's certainly an important factor, though I wouldn't discount von Richthofen's input. Separate similar factors are piloting mastery (many WWI planes were tricky/dangerous - if your attention and skill are absorbed with flying, there's less room for effectively doing other things), awareness & vision (keeping track of and appreciating the situation), tactics, and picking one's fights (when to engage or withdraw).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;922331A fair number of people, not just Dink Winkerson there, absolutely cannot tolerate a situation in which somebody else can do something they can't.  The notion of "Okay, this one is for the magic users," or "Save your spells, we can handle this with swords" is anathema to them.

I personally think people like this need to learn what "team" means.

So, "don't bother checking for traps, this is for Thieves" is also fine, right:D?

Quote from: AsenRG;922441It's almost always going to be more lethal than it would be otherwise, though. Why?

It's a proven fact that people are more vulnerable to injury when they don't expect it.

I am under the impression that drunk drivers tend to be less injured in crashes than sober drivers in a similar crash. The explanation I heard was that the drunk driver was more relaxed at the time of impact which decreased injuries vs. the tensed up, because sober, driver.

Quote from: Bren;922518I am under the impression that drunk drivers tend to be less injured in crashes than sober drivers in a similar crash. The explanation I heard was that the drunk driver was more relaxed at the time of impact which decreased injuries vs. the tensed up, because sober, driver.

Source?

Also, not having seen the source, I'd assume that drunk drivers tend to see the crash at least as soon as you see an incoming fist that you don't manage to dodge, so that's not really a good comparison. Besides, the forces at work are and the method of injury often wouldn't be comparable, but at this point, that's getting into technicalities.

Quote from: AsenRG;922538Source?

Stuff I heard from cops and ER folks. If I had an academic source I'd have used different language than "I am under the impression..." and/or have I'd have cited the source.

What's your source?

Also pain, because you were surprised at getting hit, isn't the same as injury. What you quoted "hits you didn't expect hurt the most" says the target experienced more pain, not that they experienced a greater injury. A hangnail and a papercut both hurt like sons of bitches, but as injuries go they are pretty damn minor. On the other hand, when I stepped on a nail, I felt no pain at all until afterwards when I had to pull the nail with the board it was attached to, out of my foot. I consider the puncture a bit more serious than a hangnail. As did my doctor.

EDIT: A quick internet search turned up these three references.

• Straight Dope: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2879/do-drivers-have-a-better-chance-of-surviving-car-wrecks-if-theyre-drunk
  
• From 2009: http://www.dailybreeze.com/article/ZZ/20091001/NEWS/910019838
  
• And here's a UIC study from 2012: https://news.uic.edu/alcohol-provides-protective-effect-reduces-mortality-substantially-after-injury
  

So its safer to dungeoncrawl while drunk!

Quote from: Bren;922542Stuff I heard from cops and ER folks. If I had an academic source I'd have used different language than "I am under the impression..." and/or have I'd have cited the source.

What's your source?

My source is stuff I've been told by martial artists, sport fighters, cops, former criminals*, ERs and personal experience. Also, manuals on sentry removal tactics, and texts on self-defense confirm the idea.

Also, I'd note that yes, being relaxed helps minimize the effect of injury on a direct hit or a whiplash - same source as the above. The two don't contradict each other, and I didn't dispute that. I'm disputing the idea that the drunk drivers are more or less likely to notice the incoming accident.
If we assume that they aren't significantly more likely to notice the accident beginning, the drunk ones would still probably be better off.
OTOH, some attacks just arrive seemingly "out of nowhere", and they're much more likely to result in a KO, because the body can't respond in time to minimize the injury. And a KO is at least temporary injury.
See also: the death of two teenagers following two accidents with a single suckerpunch, 2014, Australia.

*I try to avoid the current ones for reasons that should be obvious:).

QuoteAlso pain, because you were surprised at getting hit, isn't the same as injury.

Stop right here and riddle me this, then! Are HP a measure of your ability to fight, or a measure of how much you're hurt?

And yes, we both know they're both in many systems, with a predominance of one or the other in different systems. Alas, the two simply aren't the same thing, hence lots of cognitive disconnect that different players had experienced over the years;).

QuoteWhat you quoted "hits you didn't expect hurt the most" says the target experienced more pain, not that they experienced a greater injury. A hangnail and a papercut both hurt like sons of bitches, but as injuries go they are pretty damn minor. On the other hand, when I stepped on a nail, I felt no pain at all until afterwards when I had to pull the nail with the board it was attached to, out of my foot. I consider the puncture a bit more serious than a hangnail. As did my doctor.

EDIT: A quick internet search turned up these three references.

• Straight Dope: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2879/do-drivers-have-a-better-chance-of-surviving-car-wrecks-if-theyre-drunk
  
• From 2009: http://www.dailybreeze.com/article/ZZ/20091001/NEWS/910019838
  
• And here's a UIC study from 2012: https://news.uic.edu/alcohol-provides-protective-effect-reduces-mortality-substantially-after-injury
  

There was a substantial debate about cutting vs. stabbing in swordfights back at the time when swords were a war weapon, because lethality vs. incapacitation isn't actually such a no-brainer as you might imagine. So let's first talk about what HPs represent!

Additionally and unrelated, many thanks for the study! Now I have argument that going to the pub after practice is good for my health, not a waste of time:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;922632I'm disputing the idea that the drunk drivers are more or less likely to notice the incoming accident.

That's a new and different topic and not one I discussed.

QuoteStop right here and riddle me this, then! Are HP a measure of your ability to fight, or a measure of how much you're hurt?

Depends on the system. If you care about the difference use something like HERO which separates stun effect e.g. pain and physical damage or add a shock roll to a system like Runequest or BRP where HP essentially represent physical damage.

Quote from: Bren;922636That's a new and different topic and not one I discussed.

But it was the one I discussed. I spotted a misunderstanding and decided to clarify.

QuoteDepends on the system.

My point exactly. Now, which of the two do we compare?
In both cases, I refer you to the stories of the sucker punches ending a fight in one hit. Almost none of the people that launched those hits (or those that received them) were trained fighters. Ask your sources whether it's a common occurance. IME, it is.
Almost no fight* between untrained people ends in one hit, though. The reasons for this are a multitude: the body being able to absorb at least part of the attack, the adrenaline cocktail reducing the feeling, sometimes position that facilitates taking the hits, and oftentimes, drugs or alcohol.
However, if you hit people unexpectedly, most of those effects aren't in play (yet). So people often crumble. Sometimes these are the same people.
I'd say that merits quite an increase in damage. You might disagree.

*Meaning, not an assault, but a fight both parties had agreed on. Also known as "monkey dance" in some circles:).

QuoteIf you care about the difference use something like HERO which separates stun effect e.g. pain and physical damage or add a shock roll to a system like Runequest or BRP where HP essentially represent physical damage.

Yeah, thanks, but we're not talking about which system I use. We're talking about what we're trying to represent in different systems. And we're trying to represent two only-partially-connected effects using the same gauge - and then some of us wonder why it often doesn't work;).

Asen and Bren, you two are talking about two different things.  

Asen is talking about sports, fights, etc, where being unaware of an attack or body collision can lead to injury because the body's natural defenses are not engaged.  If the body's defenses are engaged, the body can resist the force of another body and so mitigate the damage better if prepared.

Bren is talking about larger force collisions and impacts against immovable objects or objects much stronger than the human body, like cars, trees, terrain, etc.  There, the body's defenses are of no use because they are not strong enough to resist the force.  Thus in that case it may be better to bend then break, and where being drunk, stoned, etc can help reduce the damage.

The anecdotes you provide are both true, not competing.

Quote from: CRKrueger;922641Asen and Bren, you two are talking about two different things.  

Asen is talking about sports, fights, etc, where being unaware of an attack or body collision can lead to injury because the body's natural defenses are not engaged.  If the body's defenses are engaged, the body can resist the force of another body and so mitigate the damage better if prepared.

Bren is talking about larger force collisions and impacts against immovable objects or objects much stronger than the human body, like cars, trees, terrain, etc.  There, the body's defenses are of no use because they are not strong enough to resist the force.  Thus in that case it may be better to bend then break, and where being drunk, stoned, etc can help reduce the damage.

The anecdotes you provide are both true, not competing.

Actually, no, though the difference in the amount of forces is certainly part of it:).

(For a start, I assume throws and locks are in play as well, which means collisions against cars, trees and terrain are just as expected, and assume that a hitter would know how to create an immovable structure upon contact. I also assume you'll try to bend instead of break and you'll try to engage the body's defences, as appropriate).

However, I'm talking about the fact that it's easier to bend in a timely manner if you know which direction you'll have to move upon contact.
Also, I'm talking about the fact that unexpected pain registers as sharper and is more debilitating.

Once again, it's possible to withstand an unexpected shot or throw, it's just harder than the same strike if it was expected;).

Quote from: AsenRG;922640But it was the one I discussed. I spotted a misunderstanding and decided to clarify.

Drunks have worse reaction time than do otherwise similar sober people so the drunk will react slower, all else being equal, than they would when sober. This too is an obvious truism.  However since the original point was about the effects of being hit when unprepared, not the effect of being unprepared on not being hit, its a bit of a tangent except in the special case of a D&D type system that uses increasing hit points to reflect blocking, evading, and slipping a blow.

QuoteMy point exactly. Now, which of the two do we compare?

First, there are a lot of systems and different systems handle or often don't separately handle physical damage, pain, and shock differently. I suggested using a system that appropriately differentiates and handles the things you care about is a wise and available choice. I'm not particularly interested in doing a detailed comparison system by system. But if you want to do that, by all means proceed.

QuoteYeah, thanks, but we're not talking about which system I use.

You raised the question of systems. If you use a system that doesn't handle and differentiate effects you find of interest, than you have a problem. If you use a system (and such systems exist) that can differentiate the different effects you find of interest, then you don't have that problem. Right now, I can't tell what problem you do or don't have.

QuoteAnd we're trying to represent two only-partially-connected effects using the same gauge - and then some of us wonder why it often doesn't work;).

I'm not sure who the we is that you refer to, but as I said, one can use different gauges or one can live with the ambiguity of mushing unrelated and loosely related things into a single gauge. You picks your poison and you takes your chances.

Quote from: CRKrueger;922641

Yeah, that too.

Quote from: Omega;922450Wait? You mean you cant?

I rolled my save against your cunning trap!!!! /runs away!!!!!!

Quote from: tenbones;922695I rolled my save against your cunning trap!!!! /runs away!!!!!!

Lets see, in AD&D thats a free attack on retreating foes. I backstab with the trebuchet!  (Hey! Its a giant sling! The logic is sound!)

Quote from: Bren;922664Drunks have worse reaction time than do otherwise similar sober people so the drunk will react slower, all else being equal, than they would when sober. This too is an obvious truism.  However since the original point was about the effects of being hit when unprepared, not the effect of being unprepared on not being hit, its a bit of a tangent except in the special case of a D&D type system that uses increasing hit points to reflect blocking, evading, and slipping a blow.

I keep forgetting those rules - does alcohol help your HP in D&D? It would be funny if it did, but potentially interesting.
Anyway, it's indeed a tangent, so let's drop it.

QuoteFirst, there are a lot of systems and different systems handle or often don't separately handle physical damage, pain, and shock differently. I suggested using a system that appropriately differentiates and handles the things you care about is a wise and available choice. I'm not particularly interested in doing a detailed comparison system by system. But if you want to do that, by all means proceed.

Not system by system, but different kinds of HP by kinds would be a good idea. So:
In a system where HP are "meat points", you need some bonus to damage, but not nearly as much. Unexpected hits might deliver more injury, or they might not, depends on what happens at the moment of contact (which is notoriously hard to quantify). Still, being unaware of the hit makes it harder to shrug it off - even boxers have been one-strike sucker punched out. They'd definitely have a bonus to hit, especially if you're not going for anything fancy.
In a system where HP are "ready to fight" points, you need a bonus to hit, and a comparatively large bonus to damage: the unexpected attack inflicts more damage, as mentioned above, and more confusion - which is even more detrimental to the ability to keep fighting.
I find the "double the damage" approach in early/OSR D&D quite true to life...for the first three levels or so. Then it should become "triple the HP damage", and so on and so forth:). My point is, even the best should always be afraid of a knife in the back, whether it's a thief wielding it or not. And it probably shouldn't be restricted to the thief (and at least some OSR systems indeed don't restrict it to be a thief-only skill).

QuoteYou raised the question of systems.

Yes, but my point was that the mechanical effects of surprise would be different in different systems. They should end up reflecting the same things, but different systems take different approaches to how the mechanics relfect reality.
The point of raising the question of systems was to suggest how different systems would represent the same thing, as an invitation for you to do the same. Are you still running H+I? It actually represents a knife ambush quite well, IIRC.

QuoteIf you use a system that doesn't handle and differentiate effects you find of interest, than you have a problem. If you use a system (and such systems exist) that can differentiate the different effects you find of interest, then you don't have that problem. Right now, I can't tell what problem you do or don't have.

Mechanically, none whatsoever, especially lately - but thanks for asking;).

QuoteI'm not sure who the we is that you refer to, but as I said, one can use different gauges or one can live with the ambiguity of mushing unrelated and loosely related things into a single gauge. You picks your poison and you takes your chances.

That's almost always true in life.