Quote from: kosmos1214;919905Im going to call you on this because by default most characters in fiction there gender is irreverent.
There are exceptions to this rule but the majority of then could be gender flipped with no problem bad remakes with standing.

You're completely wrong. Sex differences are clear and obvious, only modernist/hegelian insanity says that men and women are the same. We act differently, we think differently, we face challenges differently.

Quote from: TristramEvans;919458I think D&D should use that as an advertising slogan.

Yes they should, as long as Jeff Rients gets credit.

Quote from: Soylent Green;919859I am not sure I understand in what why it's the easiest story to re-tell or what makes an "authentic" feeling story.

Personally I don't think there is any inherent property of fantasy that makes it more suited to gaming than any other genre by a mind-blowing margin.  I think it is all down to D&D, the fact that it came in first and that it still has one of the strongest procedural forms of play. Combined this has helped it build a critical mass and with the that the momentum to stay ahead.

If you take D&D and associated spin-off and clones of the equation, the next tier of fantasy games like Runequest or WHFRP aren't vastly more popular that Call of Cthulhu, Vampire or Star Wars. It's D&D that is practically a hobby on its own.

Think about what it takes to Gm your first D&D game. Usually you design a maze and put premade monsters in it and a few traps. The players motive is usually to kill the monsters and take the treasure. The players have to choose between going left right or straight, fight or run.

Now think about any other game world. There has to be incentives. There are usually whole cities of choices. The story has to feel right to match the media the players know like the back of their hand. Its complicated.

I know you don't find it hard to build a world like that, but you're an expert (and no I'm not kidding). I can't tell you how many new players I've mentored that looked like deer in headlights until they get past a initial learning curve of just dealing with two or three options. I've also had players give up before they got over that curve. A starting GM has it even worse.

Quote from: Onix;919967Think about what it takes to Gm your first D&D game. Usually you design a maze and put premade monsters in it and a few traps. The players motive is usually to kill the monsters and take the treasure. The players have to choose between going left right or straight, fight or run.

Now think about any other game world. There has to be incentives. There are usually whole cities of choices. The story has to feel right to match the media the players know like the back of their hand. Its complicated.

I know you don't find it hard to build a world like that, but you're an expert (and no I'm not kidding). I can't tell you how many new players I've mentored that looked like deer in headlights until they get past a initial learning curve of just dealing with two or three options. I've also had players give up before they got over that curve. A starting GM has it even worse.

OK, I see what you mean now. Yes,  the dungeon provides a simple and direct structure for play that be very helpful for new GMs. In as far as one equates fantasy with dungeon crawling, this does represent an edge.

Quote from: Soylent Green;920006In as far as one equates fantasy with dungeon crawling, this does represent an edge.

Weren't the first couple adventures for Traveller pretty much dungeon crawls (I'm thinking Annic Nova/Shadows). Would non-Tolkien settings do better if they pushed the dungeon raid scenarios? Or would they just be backdoor D&D?

Quote from: Simlasa;920009Weren't the first couple adventures for Traveller pretty much dungeon crawls (I'm thinking Annic Nova/Shadows). Would non-Tolkien settings do better if they pushed the dungeon raid scenarios? Or would they just be backdoor D&D?

They might, but when the players are in the middle of a game, they might think "this doesn't feel very sci-fi" and it could negatively impact their impression of the game.

The other thing is D&D has the name recognition, new players don't usually wander into a game shop and say "Hey I heard of this game called Traveller, do you have it?" It's possible that they might find it in the store on the shelf and if it really seemed like their thing, they'd spring for it.

On the other hand I could see someone walking into a game shop and saying "Hey I heard you had a game for Star Wars."

Quote from: Onix;920016They might, but when the players are in the middle of a game, they might think "this doesn't feel very sci-fi" and it could negatively impact their impression of the game.

Nah, there'd be metal grates on the floor and wires and pipes on the walls... and storage lockers full of 'credits'... totally scifi!

Quote from: Soylent Green;920006OK, I see what you mean now. Yes,  the dungeon provides a simple and direct structure for play that be very helpful for new GMs. In as far as one equates fantasy with dungeon crawling, this does represent an edge.

I would contend that the players also pick up the game more readily because they have a simpler set of choices in a dungeon. It's very hard for us to remember struggling with what we were supposed to do in our first games. The next time you mentor a new player, watch them. There are parts, very early on, where they pause from confusion and have to process what they're doing. A lot of the time someone goads them "Comon this is simple!" but it's really a skill that you have to learn.* It takes mental effort and you can get better at it as you play more but it's very hard to remember that it once was hard. Kind of like how it once was hard to feed yourself and using a toilet was scary, we don't remember that and when we see a child having trouble it seems strange.

*I feel that it's a skill thats very worthwhile learning for real life.

Quote from: Simlasa;920021Nah, there'd be metal grates on the floor and wires and pipes on the walls... and storage lockers full of 'credits'... totally scifi!

Oh, well when you put it that way I guess I shouldn't have put them in a stone cavern with moss encrusted walls. That gelatinous cube might have also broke suspension.

Quote from: Onix;920022I would contend that the players also pick up the game more readily because they have a simpler set of choices in a dungeon.

Also, Levels. Both in the dungeon and on the character sheet. Levels are a direct bit of feedback that tells the Player they're progressing... doing it right.

Quote from: Simlasa;920028Also, Levels. Both in the dungeon and on the character sheet. Levels are a direct bit of feedback that tells the Player they're progressing... doing it right.

I hadn't considered that in my evaluation. Good point. I'm so allergic to the concept of character levels that I never really thought of the usefulness of the level framework as a concrete advancement paradigm.

At this point mostly momentum. It's not that English is becoming an increasingly dominant global language because it is easy to learn or is pleasingly constructed. People learn English because lots of people learn English and people use bog standard fantasy because lots of people use bog standard fantasy.

Which isn't a bad thing. D&D would probably do better to go back to the old practice of blatantly ripping off any kind of fantasy that's popular at the moment and throwing it into the stew instead of pretending that people give much of a crap about the specifically D&D canon that's built up such as drow, or beholders or the Forgotten Realms.

A cliche is worth a thousand words, it's often really good to start with stuff that everyone will get such as "Hera" or "orc" and then fuck with it. Far more efficient.

Quote from: Daztur;920037A cliche is worth a thousand words, it's often really good to start with stuff that everyone will get such as "Hera" or "orc" and then fuck with it. Far more efficient.

While that's true, I would argue that many more people are familiar with the D&D tropes than non-D&D fantasy, if only because so much non-D&D fantasy has been so heavily influenced by D&D by this point.

A few years ago I'd have said Game of Thrones is the exception that proves the rule, but there seems to be an explosion of fantasy based on history with a thin gloss of magic over it right now and I hope that helps drag the genre away from D&D.

Quote from: Simlasa;920028Also, Levels. Both in the dungeon and on the character sheet. Levels are a direct bit of feedback that tells the Player they're progressing... doing it right.

Progress is one of the greatest reinforcers.  Always.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;919446DING! Winner!

MOST gamers are "casuals." I don't care if the game is WoW or D&D or anything else.  Most of them are casuals.

And to the casual gamer who is also (statistically probably) also a casual reader of Tolkien and every other damn thing, "D&D = LOTR = WoW."

Pardon, been traveling.

I still disagree. As I said, for people on the outside of the gaming world, sure.  I see them seeing Tolkien=Fantasy, D&D=Fantasy, therefor, Tolkien = D&D.  I can go with that.  But once you pick up the dice, even 'casually', I'd frankly say one of the first realizations of people is the mismatch.  It's pretty basic.  I'm reading my First D&D book.  I get to the Class section.  Of any version. "Oh, this Cleric looks interesting...hmm, ain't no clerics in Tolkien".  Done.  Or the notation that there are few wizards, but they don't seem to mind swords.  or the spell list.  etc, etc, etc.
Maybe for people who have only dabbled and played a game or two.  But more than that, nope.  D&D has similarities, but it isn't Tolkien.  

But you might be right in the fact that the width of what is Tolkienesque might cover a larger amount of ground.  'Similar but not equal to'.  And obviously, by the way Cubicle 7 has felt the need to release their bit to marry the two, both the strength of the urge to marry them and the obvious need to write a whole book to make them sort of compatible is made clear.