Ok the question goes deeper than simply the "backstab" mechanic present in so many games actually but rather ...

How do you handle the attack against a totally unaware target?

Most will answer "according to the rules of course." and that's fine but I cant tell you how many times over the years, in a number of different systems, something like this has occurred.

GM - "The guard doesn't hear you, he is looking out over the battlement seemingly oblivious. Your roll is a good one and you are right up behind him."
Player - "I slit his throat."
GM - "Ok, that's *(insert game rule here - ie. double damage, +1d6, max die damage, auto crit or whatever)
Player - "Ok, I got a -blank- for -blank- points of damage!"
GM - "Alright, you got him good...... but he isn't dead. He's hurt though, so lets roll for initiative."
Player ' "WTF?"

So many times the backstab/sneak attack doesn't work out like the mercy kill its supposed to - at least in theory and it always causes frowns. Most will agree that if you come up behind someone unawares and have any skill at all, they are TOAST. It doesn't matter if they are Uber-level Billy Bad Ass, a knife in the head is pretty effective, as is a bow shot to the neck, a spear to through the chest, an axe beheading you or whatever.

I have, many times, simply allowed the player to dispatch the NPC if they aren't anybody important and reward them for their stealth but when its a major NPC you hate to jump passed the rules that far. (Despite what some will remember from my other posts, I do follow the rules a vast majority of the time.)

So whats the answer? Should you just let the thief get his +1d6, doing a pretty good number on the guard but then let the armored and better armed guard turn around and start beating the shit out of him despite his awesome sneakiness? Or do you just let him kill him and move on?

House rules maybe? Quadruple super damage? Instant Kill Shot possibility?

In AD&D 1e you have recourse to the Assassination table. However by the book I think that's only applicable to Assassins.

For everyone else in D&D I'll just note that flunkies should be 1hd and you also generally have surprise giving 1-2 free attacks before they can do anything.

That's at least a starting point.

The human body is a funny thing sometimes.  Bullets have bounced off skulls- hell, people have survived with pieces of their skull (and brain) actually missing.  Even a trained assassin can't account for everything.  You backstab a guy- but maybe his gaps in his ribs aren't where you thought because his garments threw off your calculations.  Or maybe you just happened to hit that one buckle on a strap, or maybe the guy coughed or turned at just the right moment. Even wounds that you think would kill someone (especially stabbing wounds) don't have an immediate effect.  A guy I knew in high school got stabbed twice and didn't even realize it until someone started screaming.

I'd put an initiative penalty on the guard at the very least.  He's gonna need a moment to figure out just what happened and get over the shock.  But if you sliced his throat 'wrong', there's a chance his windpipe is completely fucked and he won't be screaming- he'll be gasping.  

But like you said, house rule.  But you can't always make it easy instakill, because there's ways to exploit that.

Quote from: Crüesader;917273The human body is a funny thing sometimes.  Bullets have bounced off skulls- hell, people have survived with pieces of their skull (and brain) actually missing.  Even a trained assassin can't account for everything.  You backstab a guy- but maybe his gaps in his ribs aren't where you thought because his garments threw off your calculations.  Or maybe you just happened to hit that one buckle on a strap, or maybe the guy coughed or turned at just the right moment. Even wounds that you think would kill someone (especially stabbing wounds) don't have an immediate effect.  A guy I knew in high school got stabbed twice and didn't even realize it until someone started screaming.

I'd put an initiative penalty on the guard at the very least.  He's gonna need a moment to figure out just what happened and get over the shock.  But if you sliced his throat 'wrong', there's a chance his windpipe is completely fucked and he won't be screaming- he'll be gasping.  

But like you said, house rule.  But you can't always make it easy instakill, because there's ways to exploit that.

I agree, as a 22+ year paramedic I saw the human body survive some truly ghastly trauma.. however, SURVIVE is the key word there. They might have lived but except in a very, very, few cases such major trauma incapacitates in the least!  Line up 100 guards and give 100 novice thieves a knife and 99 of the guards are gonna be down for the count (gargling in their own blood, spinal cord severed, jugular ripped out, trachea perforated or whatever) but no longer a concern. That one guy might somehow luck out and keep going but hes a lucky dude indeed.

There should be a chance of failure though, I can see that. The situation almost seems to need to step outside the regular combat rules however as the variables at play are very different from the typical hack and slash melee. Ive house ruled it any number of ways - the most typical being a considerable multiplier or even using an exponent. (if your roll a 1, you get 1 damage - you screwed it up. But if you roll 5 you get 5x5 =25 enough to send even a high level monster writhing in his own fluids etc.)

Its hard to get the sufficient range and probabilities of the attack down to one simple rule.

Personally?

We use a very low HP system, and we consider it like a coup-de-grace.  See the bottom.

Well, newer versions of D&D use a coup de grace rule for helpless targets, which involves an instant critical hit, dealing greater damage (and even more damage based upon a thief's abilities) and the equivalent of a death save for the target. I would expect that'd be enough to take out most unaware, "standard" guards, most of the time. If, after all that, the low-level (or zero-level) guard still survives... well, luck isn't shining on the player character that day.

Yes, D&D has had a lot of time to get it right. Many first edition systems however choose to gloss over it with an over simplification and necessitate the need for a house rule sadly. Ive gotten in the habit of looking ahead to this element of combat to avoid the sudden unexpected and unpopular surprise during a game when it appears in all its sub-glory.

In AD&D 2e you have recourse to several things:

First, a failed Surprise allows a full round of attacks (not casting spells). So a thief with two daggers backstabs with a simultaneous off-hand stab, usually enough against 1st lvl followers (and I don't use 0th lvls).

Second, Ambush is like Super Surprise!, giving a round of attacks before even a Surprise roll. So you could end up with two rounds of attacks, which with a backstab is another 3 dagger attacks.

With some good kiting attacks a thief can be brutal.

Third, there's optional rules for sapping someone as a % chance with any weapon, which goes up with surprise (ambush) and even higher with a Blackjack weapon.

Overall, it works quite well unless you end up fighting a high level HP bloat wall. But them's the chances, and actually sort of a feature. Sure things get boring fast.

It's important, as always, to remember that in D&D hit points are an abstraction that represent luck and survival reflexes as much as actual flesh.

Also, if players whine about not being able to reliably instant-kill/maim things, remind them in a neutral tone of voice that it's only fair that anything they can do NPCs can do to them. That usually shuts them up.

Quote from: rgrove0172;917270I have, many times, simply allowed the player to dispatch the NPC if they aren't anybody important and reward them for their stealth but when its a major NPC you hate to jump passed the rules that far. (Despite what some will remember from my other posts, I do follow the rules a vast majority of the time.)

So whats the answer? Should you just let the thief get his +1d6, doing a pretty good number on the guard but then let the armored and better armed guard turn around and start beating the shit out of him despite his awesome sneakiness? Or do you just let him kill him and move on?

If the PCs are in a fight, then the thief gets his +1d6 (or whatever) if he sneaks up - the target is probably pretty alert, even if distracted by someone in front of him.

If the target is totally unaware - asleep, failed his chance to detect, etc - then I tend to do the auto-kill thing. If it's an important NPC, if the PCs get that far, I would probably use the Assassination table if I'm using any form of D&D.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917297Also, if players whine about not being able to reliably instant-kill/maim things, remind them in a neutral tone of voice that it's only fair that anything they can do NPCs can do to them. That usually shuts them up.

Hahaha that, too. That can resolve most any attempt at weaseling for an advantage.

Just to address this example or a game using Rules as Written

QuoteGM - "The guard doesn't hear you, he is looking out over the battlement seemingly oblivious. Your roll is a good one and you are right up behind him."
Player - "I slit his throat."
GM - "Ok, that's *(insert game rule here - ie. double damage, +1d6, max die damage, auto crit or whatever)
Player - "Ok, I got a -blank- for -blank- points of damage!"
GM - "Alright, you got him good...... but he isn't dead. He's hurt though, so lets roll for initiative."
Player ' "WTF?"

I think if you changed the following from: "Alright, you got him good...... but he isn't dead. He's hurt though, so lets roll for initiative." to something like "You move in to slit his throat. As the dagger begins to slide across his neck he jerks free in terror and a spray of blood. He's wounded badly, but isn't dead."

The adjusted statement accounts for the attack not killing him, for a reason, in this case he broke free before it could be fatal. The player may not be happy with it but the narrative now fits the results of the dice instead of implying the PC did exactly what he descried, full on throat slittery. The player may not like the result. However, it shouldn't feel as absurd as the idea of a man having his throat slit and just standing there ready to fight. If the core engine uses a system of diminishing ability based on the level of damage such as the Storyteller system, you can add further elaboration on the wound to hint at how severely they are hurt, statements like they are staggering and woozy can help to imply penalties.

Well obviously the PC didnt backstab which accounts for the crummy damage.

aheh. Sounds more like the PC was trying a cou-de-gra move on a concious target. Hence why it fails.

At the last second the guard senses something and one way or another screws up the attack. He grabbed the knife, the knife glanced off a medallion, etc. Never give the players a guaranteed "insta kill" because theres no such thing in real life combat. This is why cou-de-gra attacks were allowable only against totally helpless or unconscious targets.

Were the guard say drunk and passed out and the PC wanted to cou-de-gra them then sure.

Otherwise no. Your supposedly perfect attack isnt as perfect as you thought. For a really good sneak up and sneak attack tough could allow extra damage. Or as others pointed out, an extra attack for surprise.

Depends on the game and edition of course.

Thieves and Assassins get special backstab and assassination abilities that other characters don't get because they are specialists in this sort of thing.

I generally give anyone attacking an unaware target from beind a bonus to their attack. To hit or to damage or both depending on the system. Auto-kill is only possible against a helpless foe, and even then may not be silent.

Hollywood has a bit to anwer for on how easy it is to silently kill an unsuspecting guard I expect.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917297It's important, as always, to remember that in D&D hit points are an abstraction that represent luck and survival reflexes as much as actual flesh.

Exactly. Surviving a backstab attack means that, at the last minute, the victim looked up, heard a tiny noise, or even just moved randomly in a way that saved his ass. Or neck, in this case. And, as you noted, PCs get the same benefit, so why complain?

Quote from: Arminius;917272In AD&D 1e you have recourse to the Assassination table. However by the book I think that's only applicable to Assassins.

Only assassins can attempt to assassinate, but you are also supposed to use the table for a true "mercy kill" (victim is unconscious or helpless) performed by any character class. I don't think I'd noticed that back when I ran AD&D. Still, what we are talking about is not a mercy kill, it's a surprise attack: sneak up on a victim without being noticed, grab him, slit his throat. He's not helpless, not unless you restrain him after grabbing him so that he can't avoid the blow.

In OD&D, I wouldn't bother with an assassination table for coup de grace. Killing a bound or unconscious victim is automatic. What I'd probably do, if I wanted instant kill surprise attacks, is give thieves an attack roll (ignoring armor) and then two options: roll multiple dice of damage as per the backstab rule and take the risk the character survives, or restrain/subdue the victim, then coup de grace. Maybe roll the "damage" and compare to victim's Strength first, to try to hold them, or to Con, to knock them out. Success on either allows automatic kill, if desired.

In reality it's not that simple, humans are surprisingly resilient.

In a game, well you just decide. It's reasonable to have PCs knock off nameless guards with impunity, but what if they sneak up on a red dragon? Well, this is why D&D has hit points and the mechanic of adding or multiplying damage - the sort of people you can knock off easily will have low HP, and the sort of people who you can't will have high HP.

The other aspect in D&D is that if you're having them roll for surprise, then - depending on your reading of the notoriously muddled AD&D1e initiative rules - you're supposed to get multiple attacks. So "you sneak up on the guard, he will be surprised on a 5 in 6... I rolled 2, that is 3 less than 5, so you after the first surprise attack you get 3 more, after the first one he might cry out though."

In GURPS4e they had something similar, basically the surprised people might just be milling around doing nothing but dithering and ducking for a few rounds. And the multiple attacks would usually take care of things for you.