Quote from: Christopher Brady;911558...
Really?  I'm wondering where that came up.  Because most vanguards were lightly armoured.  The heavy guys, typically cavalry were kept in the back when the lightly to medium armoured infanty broke most of the enemy first.

Is there any ancient/medieval battle that actually developed this way? Sounds to me like you are mis-conjuring ancient skirmishers, whose purpose was to disrupt the main enemy lines with missiles and/or lure some of them out of formation, and deal with enemy skirmishers. Skirmishers were a prelude to main battle. In any case, the point seems in no way to invalidate what CRKrueger was saying about archers and mainline infantry. In fact, the whole subject only reinforces the original point, which is that different types of arms can naturally combine to assist each other in logical ways that can flow as natural results of a detailed combat system that reflects reality, which is the opposite of artificial rules which list magical synergy effects from combining flavors of characters to produce special effects because of a generic desire for synergy or artificial niche reinforcement.

It seems to me that MMOs are a prime example of computer game designers going insane trying to control complex dynamic systems with pre-made content that infinitely regenerates, steep power curves, trying to entertain everyone with continual character advancement, things to do and kill, lack of negative events, etc. MMOs try to combine so much incompatible shit into one clusterfuck that it's impossible to do anything but a surreal slurry of conventional torture.

QuoteWizardry being influenced by D&D:  http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/wizardry/wizardry-interview.htm

That is an interview with the Co-Creator of Wizardry.  Fifth paragraph down.  Evidence that one Computer RPGs have some background with D&D. ...

Why do you keep trying to prove Wizardry was influenced by D&D? So what? There were hundreds or maybe thousands of CRPGs created by 1990. Rogue? MUDs? Stahp! Of course all of them had some degree of D&D influence, especially if you count 2nd-hand influence.  Do you really think anyone (understands why you're arguing this, or) thinks otherwise?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;911558Are you a time traveler?  The Cleric class shows up in 1974.  The first MMO is claimed to have been created in 1996.

Every soldier that went into battle, from infantry to cavalry to King would wear armour and shields if they were melee.  It looked nothing like D&D.  They fielded armies of hundreds to thousands.

1: Um... Actually according to the folk who were there... The Cleric was created to counter undead. If I recall correctly, to counter a vampire? Clerics in OD&D and BX do not get healing spells till level 2 and another at level 3. They dont get a 3rd healing spell till level 6. whoo boy! Pass that healin!

2: Um... Armies fielded what they could afford. Soldiers wore what they were given and mercs wore what they could afford or the leader rationed out for them wear.  And none of that has anything to do with small units like an adventuring party. Which are more akin to small merc groups comprised of sometimes very different people.

Comparing D&D to real world military is beyond foolish. We didnt have a world jam packed with ruins and underground habitations full of monsters, some of which cant be killed via conventional means. And we dont have people who can toss around spells that do oft the impossible. We were limited to effectively two or so combat capable classes and probably 95% fall into the fighter class. And so on and so fourth.

Most D&D-esque fantasy worlds function under very different paramiters than the real world. And they still dont need the four classes allways and ever present to survive.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;911353Actually, yes.  He's just wrong in thinking where it started.

Where do you think MMO's got the ideas from?  Where CRPGs got it?

Dungeons and Dragons, with it's four basic 'food groups'.  Computers (and consoles) meld it into a more cohesive role, because they remove the messy human element, but D&D is where it started.

Well, the four food groups is  not present in the original itteration of the game. The Thief class disn't come along until Supplement One. Rogues were a 3e invention. By which point the game had mutated sbstantially from the original.

We played lots of successful D&D without one of each class, or even each type of class. We usually did not have Thieves or Magic Users. Clerics were used because of their ability to fight almost as well as Fighters and turn the undead. Remember Clerics didn't get their first spell until second level, and Cure Light Wounds is not all that great. We used healing potions instead.

Quote from: Skarg, Omega, DaveFacts

C'mon guys, don't let the truth get in the way.