Thanks for providing the missing link there. I've never read MERP so that's interesting to know, that they stat out the fictional characters and then provide no explanation how they wouldn't all just have been slaughtered repeatedly. Do they stat out Gandalf too, and if so do they have him Balrog-worthy or...?

Quote from: Skarg;911606Thanks for providing the missing link there. I've never read MERP so that's interesting to know, that they stat out the fictional characters and then provide no explanation how they wouldn't all just have been slaughtered repeatedly. Do they stat out Gandalf too, and if so do they have him Balrog-worthy or...?

hmm.. MERP is a game you might like, considering your background and previous posts.  I'm surprised you're not more familiar. It is a bit dated, but it is a quite gritty game with bloody tactical combat, magic that isn't overpowered, and realism is a premise.  It assumes that ME is a world in motion, and that the PCs are nothing particularly special in terms of game mechanics.  It's only through deeds that they can really impact the world in a major way, and even then it is more butterfly effect or ripples in the pond as the game is primarily set 1500 years prior to LotR.  PCs aren't godlings and don't have any narrative power, but as I said, in Tolkien, it's really the little guy who matters and can tip the balance.

Don't have my books handy, but both Gandalf and the Balrog are about 50th level - neigh invincible as far as PCs are concerned, (the game only goes to level 10 without RM).  Although levels are not really equivalent to d&d type levels as it is a skill based game and just about any character, no matter how experienced, is vulnerable to cold steel, short of powerful magics.

Ok good.  I did miss something.  It's been provided, I am back on the same page.


Now as to the need for GM Fiat to save the Heros in Tolkin:  I disagree.  

He only does that when he has the Eagels rescue the dwarves in 'the Hobbit'

Other than that it's all cleaver choices on the PC's part.  Well the Wicth king is a Key Hole boss.  But they had the key, so as much as I don't like invincible bosses with specific weakness that was fair.

The idea that the Heros couldn't beat the enemy goes to something we were starting to talk about in the "niche protection " thread. Before it devolved into the number and tatictices of a goblin encounter and how to make armour.

My premise is that min maxing is caused by dm's who make their players fight the enemies strenth.

If your challenges are all nails and screws than the players are all going to be big fucking hammers and screw drivers.

Plus Tolkien was probably like, "And this is also the perfect chance to call the PCs 'fools' and act like it's coming from an NPC!"

Kidding aside though, when I am looking at an RPG that seeks to emulate a particular body of fiction, I don't worry about whether things would most likely play out the same under the game rules as they did in the source material. But I at least want it to be POSSIBLE that they would play out that way, or I feel like something is wrong.

So MERP as a game? Well I have my issues with it, but I can understand people liking it. But as far as emulating the feel of Tolkien in terms of magic and combat? I'd have to say it is pretty bad!

I wouldn't seriously judge by anything involving Gandalf though, because Gandalf is clearly a GMPC

Quote from: Manzanaro;911614So MERP as a game? Well I have my issues with it, but I can understand people liking it. But as far as emulating the feel of Tolkien in terms of magic and combat? I'd have to say it is pretty bad!

Care to back that up? What is un-Tolkien about MERP's combat system? (we've already discussed the magic system some in this thread, but I wouldn't mind hearing why it is so "bad!")

...Or, do you just want to throw your unfounded dislike into the universe? If so, that's cool, just say so. I'm not really invested.

For starters? The Rolemaster style crits. The fact that a beginning PC will get his ass kicked by a dog, nevermind an orc. Etc.

And don't get offended. I said I can understand people liking it. I am not raging that the game was a piece of crap that no one should play. I'm just saying it doesn't emulate Tolkien well. And it doesn't. Not anymore than the Black Company book based on D&D rules emulates Glen Cook, for example.

Cool, no, I am not the least bit offended.  Not at all.  Sorry if I came off that way. It just seems like if you make a blanket statement that X game is bad or doesn't serve the genre or whatever - you should explain why you think so.

I gave a few reasons why I think MERP does well by ME.  I know there is a perception out there that MERP is crap and bad for Tolkien, but I think it is unjustified, and I have yet to see a meaningful or convincing criticism.

MERP combat is pretty brutal and a typical orc is an even 50/50 match for a typical 1st level character (a maxed out warrior could handle several with difficulty and risk of serious injury), but I don't see a problem with that as far as emulating Tolkien.

The valid criticisms of MERP that I know of are 1) the math is tedious 2) it's not a very complete game (it's basically chargen, a combat engine, and some low key magic tacked on. For example, there is no social combat or anything like that.  You actually have to role play - some see that as a feature rather than a bug) 3) there isn't really even an attempt at game balance (also could be a feature rather than a bug) 4) it's a traditional skill based game with very few skills, maybe 10-15 skills outside of combat (and if you don't like skill based traditional RPGs, it won't work for you) 5) It doesn't accommodate high level super hero play well so if you want to be Gandalf or Galadriel you should look elsewhere.

I mostly don't play it anymore because of #1 above, the others are mostly good qualities.

By the way, has anyone ever played the ICE Lord of the Rings Adventure Game?  Its basically MERP light using 2d6.

Oh man the Math!   And the fucking charts.  At first all the individual crits were cool but Two charts per hit every hit, on different pages!    Come on!

Quote from: Headless;911656Oh man the Math!   And the fucking charts.  At first all the individual crits were cool but Two charts per hit every hit, on different pages!    Come on!

They don't call it chart-master for nothing!  I played a lot of MERP in the '80s and 90's and it never bothered me.  The math is not hard, it's just constant (and gets fuzzy after a six pack or so).  I tried to run MERP again about 2 years ago after a decade and a half off - and, I found the math and charts just a little more tedious then I want to deal with.  I'm older, have less time and patience, and there are so many games out there now that can get you similar results with less work.

Use whatever magic system is the most fun for your game. Screw all the lore nazis.

Quote from: danbuter;911664Use whatever magic system is the most fun for your game. Screw all the lore nazis.

It's not always Lore, it's FEEL.  If the feel isn't right for your group, then it's not going to work.

But otherwise, I agree with you.

Quote from: Madprofessor;911610hmm.. MERP is a game you might like, considering your background and previous posts.  I'm surprised you're not more familiar. It is a bit dated, but it is a quite gritty game with bloody tactical combat, magic that isn't overpowered, and realism is a premise.  It assumes that ME is a world in motion, and that the PCs are nothing particularly special in terms of game mechanics.  It's only through deeds that they can really impact the world in a major way, and even then it is more butterfly effect or ripples in the pond as the game is primarily set 1500 years prior to LotR.  PCs aren't godlings and don't have any narrative power, but as I said, in Tolkien, it's really the little guy who matters and can tip the balance.

Don't have my books handy, but both Gandalf and the Balrog are about 50th level - neigh invincible as far as PCs are concerned, (the game only goes to level 10 without RM).  Although levels are not really equivalent to d&d type levels as it is a skill based game and just about any character, no matter how experienced, is vulnerable to cold steel, short of powerful magics.

Thanks for the summary. Those are the kinds of things I like. I like Tolkien too but the people I've gamed with have never expressed an interest in playing a Middle Earth campaign (though playing out some scenes such as the fighting in Moria using TFT & GURPS, I have done), and we tend to be pretty content with our TFT/GURPS + house rules. There are so many RPGs and so often they aren't what I'm looking for, that I've not looked at many of them. Like I picked up the Games Workshop Twin Towers miniatures book, and the crude miniatures combat system offered nothing but groan-inducement. I will probably look into MERP to check it out though, now that I know it's more likely to be my style. Maybe the magic system is interesting.

The magic system is interesting.  Of the magic systems I have found it is the most interesting.  I would like to steal it for a home brew game.  

Though the magic can be quite restrictive.  As I already said full casters really can't afford to learn weapons.  But most of the straight damage spells are in a class only list.  So only that class can use them, and that class can't do a lot of other stuff.  

For instance an achelmist is the only class that can make magic wands but can't lean any of the ball or bolt spells to put in it.  

It's definatly old school.  Not in the good way, I the arbitrary and restrictive way.   Except when's it's not. Which is what makes the hard rules so jaring.

Quote from: Skarg;911734Thanks for the summary. Those are the kinds of things I like. I like Tolkien too but the people I've gamed with have never expressed an interest in playing a Middle Earth campaign (though playing out some scenes such as the fighting in Moria using TFT & GURPS, I have done), and we tend to be pretty content with our TFT/GURPS + house rules. There are so many RPGs and so often they aren't what I'm looking for, that I've not looked at many of them. Like I picked up the Games Workshop Twin Towers miniatures book, and the crude miniatures combat system offered nothing but groan-inducement. I will probably look into MERP to check it out though, now that I know it's more likely to be my style. Maybe the magic system is interesting.

Well, I wouldn't go too far out of your way.  The game is collectible and quite expensive.  Also despite its' many good qualities, the core mechanics involve a quite a bit of arithmetic and chart flipping which can be a turn off.  It didn't used to bother me, and it's not that bad, but there a lot of games that can get you to the same place with less work (GURPS or BRP would be ideal I think).  I was just surprised that you hadn't messed with it, given what i know of your tastes and background.

Besides, you should count yourself lucky that you are content and so happy with with TFT/GURPS, especially since it is a universal system that you can do almost anything with.  I've never been completely happy with a system, and I think few of us are.  It's a pain in the ass constantly searching for the right game.  I am a little jealous!

I think the best take-aways from MERP are the approach to ME campaigns where you play minor characters in a world in motion set in an "empty" time as far as Tolkien canon.  I also think MERPs background, setting details and adventures are exceptional even though they are apocryphal.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Headless
The magic system is interesting. Of the magic systems I have found it is the most interesting. I would like to steal it for a home brew game.

Well, Spell Law was designed as a substitute for D&D magic.  I don't think it would be too tough.

QuoteThough the magic can be quite restrictive. As I already said full casters really can't afford to learn weapons. But most of the straight damage spells are in a class only list. So only that class can use them, and that class can't do a lot of other stuff.

For instance an achelmist is the only class that can make magic wands but can't lean any of the ball or bolt spells to put in it.

It's definatly old school. Not in the good way, I the arbitrary and restrictive way. Except when's it's not. Which is what makes the hard rules so jaring.

That's not my experience so I'll just agree to disagree. RM/MERP can be a pain in the ass, but it is pretty darn flexible.

Thanks for the information, guys! I'm not sure why MERP wasn't on my radar, except there are so many games out there and I rarely saw it, and our local shops had it in shrink-wrap, and I had no one telling me it was interesting so I assumed it was unlikely to have much content that I'd find useful.