Daniel Ream: Whatever people do for a living, they want the exact opposite in RPGs

Ulairi · July 29, 2016, 09:10:33 AM

Electrical engineer and work for a big corporation where I have to wear a suit everyday. It's true. My friends and I basically want to sit around the table being heroes and not deal with any real life bullshit (so relationships are out from our game).

ArrozConLeche · July 29, 2016, 09:30:10 AM

Quote from: Omega;910348I allways play a handicapped person.

I tried real hard to stat up a blind swordsman in Gurps; patterned after Rutger Hauer in Blind Fury, because I didn't know about Zatoichi. That was hard to get right without a gazillion points.

Bren · July 29, 2016, 12:21:16 PM

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;910419I tried real hard to stat up a blind swordsman in Gurps; patterned after Rutger Hauer in Blind Fury, because I didn't know about Zatoichi. That was hard to get right without a gazillion points.

Blind no more usefully describes those sorts of characters than it does Daredevil.

You would be better served by treating the character as being, in effect, sighted in most situations. But adding in minor advantages and disadvantages related to the manner in which they "see." That will do a much better job of imitating those sorts of characters. As an example of a minor disadvantage - loud, cacophonous noises would affect those characters as does dim light or darkness for the normally sighted, whereas true darkness is an advantage to the blind fighter vs. the normally sighted.

daniel_ream · July 29, 2016, 12:53:01 PM

Quote from: Bren;910448Blind no more usefully describes those sorts of characters than it does Daredevil.

The problem is that GURPS is a rigorously "realistic" simulationist point-based build system. You can take the approach that Nick Parker really only has Quirk: Blind (-1) rather than Blindness (-50), but RAW there's no in between. You can hack something, but at that point you may as well just toss out the GURPS level of detail in favour of HERO's generic Physical Disadvantage.

Bren · July 29, 2016, 01:31:57 PM

Quote from: daniel_ream;910460The problem is that GURPS is a rigorously "realistic" simulationist point-based build system.

My point was that Rutger Hauer's Vietnam veteran, Zatoichi, and Daredevil aren't realistically blind. Treating their blindness realistically is missing the point and, as we have already heard, it doesn't give you the character you were looking for without either (a) a different definition of the blind disadvantage or (b) the original disadvantage definition and a massive infusion of extra build points.

Christopher Brady · July 29, 2016, 01:32:13 PM

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;910419I tried real hard to stat up a blind swordsman in Gurps; patterned after Rutger Hauer in Blind Fury, because I didn't know about Zatoichi. That was hard to get right without a gazillion points.

What was the problem? The extra sensory aspects? Or the combat skills?

ArrozConLeche · July 29, 2016, 01:44:46 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910468What was the problem? The extra sensory aspects? Or the combat skills?

The awareness, but more than that, the combat skills. It's been a while since I tried to build it, and actually run a combat. I might try it again. It was Gurps 3e basic set (I can't remember if I was using the martial arts supplement--probably not). The main issue was overcoming the penalties from the Blindness disadvantage with either high attributes, high skills or advantages (from what I remember).

Edit: Interestingly, I never tried it with Hero, and obviously not in the latest GURPS iteration. But it was fun trying that sort of thing with the GURPS toolkit.

Christopher Brady · July 29, 2016, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;910473The awareness, but more than that, the combat skills. It's been a while since I tried to build it, and actually run a combat. I might try it again. It was Gurps 3e basic set (I can't remember if I was using the martial arts supplement--probably not). The main issue was overcoming the penalties from the Blindness disadvantage with either high attributes, high skills or advantages (from what I remember).

Edit: Interestingly, I never tried it with Hero, and obviously not in the latest GURPS iteration. But it was fun trying that sort of thing with the GURPS toolkit.

I've never seen the film, so I don't know anything about the character past what you've told us but how limiting is his blindness? Because if it was just a minor nuisance, then the 1 point Quirk: Blind would have likely been enough.

Willie the Duck · July 29, 2016, 04:02:44 PM

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;910473The awareness, but more than that, the combat skills. It's been a while since I tried to build it, and actually run a combat. I might try it again. It was Gurps 3e basic set (I can't remember if I was using the martial arts supplement--probably not). The main issue was overcoming the penalties from the Blindness disadvantage with either high attributes, high skills or advantages (from what I remember).

Edit: Interestingly, I never tried it with Hero, and obviously not in the latest GURPS iteration. But it was fun trying that sort of thing with the GURPS toolkit.

Buying bonuses is always more expensive in GURPS then the point savings you get for penalties (since they want people's scores to stay in the 6-16 range where 3d6 works well). Taking the blindness disadvantage and then offsetting the penalty (I can't remember, -4? -6?) with a really high combat skill is a serious net loss. I'd more likely take the disadvantage Blindness with a serious limitation (or whatever it is called in GURPS, I've been using HERO for too long) roughly equivalent to "only takes effect in ~10% of situations" because seriously, as Bren said, those guys aren't actually disadvantaged nearly at all (except maybe having to reveal that they aren't disadvantaged like people think they are).

ArrozConLeche · July 29, 2016, 06:20:52 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910483I've never seen the film, so I don't know anything about the character past what you've told us but how limiting is his blindness? Because if it was just a minor nuisance, then the 1 point Quirk: Blind would have likely been enough.

It's been a long while since I last saw the movie. The guy's blindness didn't impede him from from going toe to toe with Sho Kosugi and kicking lesser ass all over the movie. Yet, like the battle shows, he can't tell that it was just an apple that Sho threw at him. Another example: He was aware enough to to not step on dog shit, but then he can't recognize that the animal he steps over isn't a dog, but an alligator. It's almost like his super senses only kick in when something is a threat.

ArrozConLeche · July 29, 2016, 06:23:24 PM

Quote from: Willie the Duck;910493Buying bonuses is always more expensive in GURPS then the point savings you get for penalties (since they want people's scores to stay in the 6-16 range where 3d6 works well). Taking the blindness disadvantage and then offsetting the penalty (I can't remember, -4? -6?) with a really high combat skill is a serious net loss. I'd more likely take the disadvantage Blindness with a serious limitation (or whatever it is called in GURPS, I've been using HERO for too long) roughly equivalent to "only takes effect in ~10% of situations" because seriously, as Bren said, those guys aren't actually disadvantaged nearly at all (except maybe having to reveal that they aren't disadvantaged like people think they are).

It was a pretty steep penalty (for Blindness). I hadn't thought about using a Quirk, because there was a disadvantage called Blindness already. I wanted to "model" how I thought his senses really must have worked. That's part of the fun (and frustration).

Christopher Brady · July 29, 2016, 06:32:01 PM

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;910509It was a pretty steep penalty (for Blindness). I hadn't thought about using a Quirk, because there was a disadvantage called Blindness already. I wanted to "model" how I thought his senses really must have worked. That's part of the fun (and frustration).

Now, this is a different system (M&M 3e), but my deaf superhero had a device that compensated for his deafness, but was easily removed, so it was still a complication, but not a very big one. He doesn't have super senses either, just compensated for a lack of sense.

It's sounds more like the Blind Fury guy isn't super sensitive, but rather has a great sense of spacial awareness. He knows where 'things' are, but the specifics don't actually matter. It sounds more like a quirk, rather out an out super senses, a la Marvel Daredevil.

Tetsubo · July 29, 2016, 06:33:41 PM

I'm blue collar. I work in a factory. I've worked numerous jobs in manufacturing for the past thirty-two years. I don't think it has any bearing on what I do or do not like in role-playing games. It's just my job. It pays my bills. It isn't my 'career'. To me that is like comparing cheese to chalk.

ArrozConLeche · July 29, 2016, 06:44:06 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910510Now, this is a different system (M&M 3e), but my deaf superhero had a device that compensated for his deafness, but was easily removed, so it was still a complication, but not a very big one. He doesn't have super senses either, just compensated for a lack of sense.

It's sounds more like the Blind Fury guy isn't super sensitive, but rather has a great sense of spacial awareness. He knows where 'things' are, but the specifics don't actually matter. It sounds more like a quirk, rather out an out super senses, a la Marvel Daredevil.

Since the blind fury guy is probably patterned after Zatoichi (according to wikipedia, the movie is based on a Zatoichi movie), maybe this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zatoichi#Character
"His lightning-fast fighting skill is incredible, with his sword held in a reverse grip; this, combined with his unflappable steel-nerved wits in a fight, his keen ears, sense of smell and proprioception, all render him a formidable adversary.

It figures there's a trope for it: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlindWeaponmaster

Spike · August 01, 2016, 12:55:39 AM

Quote from: CRKrueger;910039How did the knowledge of this truism ever get lost? That's what roleplaying is about - not being you.

The Timelords RPG wants a word with you.