We're on the verge of having an official Middle-Earth D&D supplement brought to us by Cubicle 7, so let's talk about the 900lb Troll in the room when it comes to Middle-Earth: Magic.  There have been a lot of Middle-Earth games, licensed and other, so what do you think fits your vision of Middle-Earth magic best?

I played a LotR campaign back in the AD&D 2e days and our class choices were fighter or thief. All magic came from NPCs. Interestingly enough, that campaign felt more LotR than my MERP experiences.

Looking back, do you really think it was the "No PC Magic" that was the main difference?

Cubicle 7 and TOR by a landslide. Magic in the hands of Middle-Earth player characters doesn't sit well with my view of Tolkien's realm. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, and the rest of the Maiar were the only wizards and they didn't have apprentices hanging about causing problems. MERP is nostalgic to me simply because it was the only focused Middle-Earth RPG on the market when I started gaming; Decipher's attempt was pretty and that offset some of the unease I felt about having PC wizards in the setting. When TOR came out and I saw there were no PC wizards, I knew I had the Middle-Earth RPG for me.

Later!

Harl

The "Only the Istari Wield Magic" idea has one gigantic flaw - The Necromancer.

When Sauron rose as The Necromancer in Mirkwood, there was ambiguity as to whether or not it was Sauron.  Who or what else could it have possibly been?  If there's a handful of Noldor and 5 Istari who wield magic then how are The Wise not saying "Ah crap, not this Sauron shit again?"  There have to be beings who can wield magic who aren't Elf Lords, Ringwraiths, or Maiar - like the Mouth of Sauron.  Now I'm not saying Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, Teleports and Walls of Ice but Men who aren't the direct line of Isildur have to be able to work some form of magic - the texts themselves prove it.

Of course "Men" doesn't necessarily mean PCs, but if something is true about a setting, then it is true.  I'm not a big fan of metadata tags hanging over people's heads due to their narrative classification.

TOR doesn't say that only Istari wield magic though. PCs in TOR can have a range of magic. Just don't expect one to be like Gandalf, as he was one of a select group of powerful beings. Even the practitioners of dark magic of the like the Necromancer could have been confused for, are covered. In fact, the villain of Tales of Wilderland is a good example of a Mouth if Sauron like magic wielder.

See, I've always felt that the presence of magic in Middle Earth was a bit of a confused mess. It makes me wish Tolkien had been allowed to rewrite the Hobbit like he hoped to do, to bring it more into the Lord of the Rings style of storytelling.

There is no magic in Middle Earth the way most RPGs use Magic. There's invoking the power of the Song of Creation, like Gandalf, Tom Bombadil, and Luthien does. There's subverting the Song, like Sauron, Saruman, the Wights, the Witch King. And then there's powers of race, like the elves ability to sing things into truth, or Aragorn foresight. But the common person knows about Wizards, and we're lead to believe (based on the accusation of Frodo being a wandering conjurer in Book One) that there are more common magicians. The Mouth of Sauron is said to have powerful magic as well. So there must be some minor magicians who have either "decoded" some of the songs of creation and found ways to work magic through a bastardization of this (perhaps Tolkien's commentary on Hermetic magic?). It's never clear, since we never meet any other actual magician who wasn't either originally a Maiar or Numenorian in the first place.

The best option is to just restrict all magic classes in Middle Earth. Thinking of 5th D&D, allowing the kind of magic a Ranger gets might be worthwhile though, and you could use Warlocks for those who've communed with Melkor or Sauron for actual sorcery.

It seems to be me that if Gandalf and company are "only" considered wizards and not the gods/angels they supposedly are according to Tolkien, then wizards must be fairly commonplace.

Magic items seem to be quite common. Heck, if you go by The Hobbit, J.R.R. Tolkien was the first Monty Haul, they really got a ton of loot for taking out 3 trolls.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;910399There is no magic in Middle Earth the way most RPGs use Magic. There's invoking the power of the Song of Creation, like Gandalf, Tom Bombadil, and Luthien does. There's subverting the Song, like Sauron, Saruman, the Wights, the Witch King. And then there's powers of race, like the elves ability to sing things into truth, or Aragorn foresight. But the common person knows about Wizards, and we're lead to believe (based on the accusation of Frodo being a wandering conjurer in Book One) that there are more common magicians. The Mouth of Sauron is said to have powerful magic as well. So there must be some minor magicians who have either "decoded" some of the songs of creation and found ways to work magic through a bastardization of this (perhaps Tolkien's commentary on Hermetic magic?). It's never clear, since we never meet any other actual magician who wasn't either originally a Maiar or Numenorian in the first place.

Yep. That's the approach in TOR. The magic item rules are also along these lines and very good.

As for the 5e iteration, I expect to see 6 new classes based on the 6 callings in TOR. None of which are magic users. Magic will be smaller and cultural specific. The rules will be compatible with 5e classes but if you want a closer to Tolkien experience, just use what is in the new 5e Players Guide.

It will be interesting to see how the 5E version changes the flavor of TOR. I mean, with a 5E rules set it's bound to fell different, right? Can't wait to buy a copy, however.....

Quote from: CRKrueger;910393Looking back, do you really think it was the "No PC Magic" that was the main difference?

Had a simmilar experience wayyyy back and personally Id say "Yes" keeping the magic out of the hands of the PCs and keeping it low when it did appear was vital to maintaining the feel of the books. In our case it was done with BX.

My one foray into MERP felt overall really good. But it also felt like there was too much magic just from that single experience. Could have been the DM? Could have been the system?

TOR magic is damn good and flavorful, even if perhaps a little restricted.  Tied to races, the magic feels a tad One Trick Ponyish.

I suspect this issue elicits more unjustified nerd rage than any other in the hobby. The source books can be used to justify several different takes on magic in the game, spanning everything from magic being subtle, beyond rules, and far out of reach of PC's (i.e., the original 'Pendragon' system of magic) to being quite common, flashy and accessible to everyone. As for the range of spells, item powers, etc., D&D is, and always has been, totally fine.

Decipher.

I think Decipher has the best Middle-earth books out (currently) and the magic system is very much by the books (as much as it can be)

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;910399See, I've always felt that the presence of magic in Middle Earth was a bit of a confused mess. It makes me wish Tolkien had been allowed to rewrite the Hobbit like he hoped to do, to bring it more into the Lord of the Rings style of storytelling.

There is no magic in Middle Earth the way most RPGs use Magic. There's invoking the power of the Song of Creation, like Gandalf, Tom Bombadil, and Luthien does. There's subverting the Song, like Sauron, Saruman, the Wights, the Witch King. And then there's powers of race, like the elves ability to sing things into truth, or Aragorn foresight. But the common person knows about Wizards, and we're lead to believe (based on the accusation of Frodo being a wandering conjurer in Book One) that there are more common magicians. The Mouth of Sauron is said to have powerful magic as well. So there must be some minor magicians who have either "decoded" some of the songs of creation and found ways to work magic through a bastardization of this (perhaps Tolkien's commentary on Hermetic magic?). It's never clear, since we never meet any other actual magician who wasn't either originally a Maiar or Numenorian in the first place.

The best option is to just restrict all magic classes in Middle Earth. Thinking of 5th D&D, allowing the kind of magic a Ranger gets might be worthwhile though, and you could use Warlocks for those who've communed with Melkor or Sauron for actual sorcery.

This.  Played a lot of MERP back in the day. My most authentic feeling MERP games were when there were no PC mages or animists.

That said, as a shorthand for the complexity and subtly of ME magic, as a group we came to the understanding that some magic was "sanctioned" and everything else was stolen, or corrupted.

I once had a player run a delusional Haradrim Mage (3rd age c. 1200 Kin Stife era) who believed that his magic was "sanctioned" because he had stolen it from the Dunadain, Castemer the Usurper's court mage to be precise, sorcerer's apprentice style.  He then took it upon himself to lead the Haradrim out of darkness by expunging their blasphemous sorcories in a witch-hunt of epic proportions. Of course, the player knew what his character did not, so it was an intentionally tragic character.  The character, in self-denial (and a bit of messiah complex) took the burden of corruption upon himself as a sort of twisted self-sacrifice as if he was absorbing the sins of his people with his campaign of magical theft and murder - all set against the back drop of the Gondorian civil war.  It was brilliant IC role-playing, and one of the most memorable characters I have ever had the pleasure of GMing.