Quote from: Spinachcat;910165I like running Rifts / Cyberpunk / Shadowrun in Africa. The big conceit I've used is the fight for resources, or the rise of Africa after in a cyber dystopia after a limited nuke war left the usual suspects (Russia, China, USA) in shambles.

Africa's definitely a place that could rise, meteorically, it has what it needs.  Charting from A to Z is the tricky part.

Quote from: CRKrueger;910155Yeah, allegories of Racism, not allegories of Urban US Blacks circa 1980-1990.  Which ones are supposed to be Latinos again?  Neither Orks nor Trolls are really blamed for taking anyone's jobs.

Except yes, they were, fluff from various Guides to Seattle comes to mind - Goblinization's races are generally an amalgamation of Black & Latino, not just one and the other - it is after all, a fantasy world. At this point it feels like you are complaining that the depiction of racial probelms in society in Shadowrun isn't just a 1 to 1 carbon copy of Real Life's issues, so...complaining that a metaphor is more than an inch deep? I suppose more obvious  would be Humanis, depicted as Secret South - American Nazi Conspiracy with members wearing long white robes with pointy white hoods (there's at least one official illustration in 5/4e's Guide to Seattle, I'm at work or I'd tell you which page exactly), that are somewhat familiar... Not to mention, as stated up thread, that the authors pretty much admitted such. I mean hells, in Orcs' case you even have a conflict between a radical terrorist group Sons of Sauron and the pro - reform ORK...which probably does sound a bit familiar again.

For future ORCS ARE SOYLENT G- Blacks, I refer to various fluff pieces hailing even from the days of 2e, where Orcs are engaging in a familiar "The Man is keeping us down, man" and you have various conspiracy theories how Humanis is setting up abortion clinics in dominantly Orcish neighborhoods, etc. etc.

QuoteIf Trolls are Latinos and Orcs are Blacks, why do Orcs have the higher birth rate?  If Ghouls are meant to be the fear of AIDS, why is it Orks who call humans "Breeders"?  Are Dwarves the Jews, or Elves?  Elves the European Elite Economic Class or is that the Dragons?  Who are the Native Americans?  Oh, the real Native Americans, but they're not really a repressed minority anymore because they took their land back and are a world power.  So the UCAS is now the Native Americans, or are they the South and the Amerindians the North?

You are fallaciously assuming that a metaphor must somehow be 1 to 1, that if Orcs aren't engaging in Hip Hop culture they can't be an allegory for Black's ghettos. Not to mention that since the main premise of Shadowrun's des is not Social Mirror: The RPG, but Cyberpunk With Dragons: The Game. If anything, Elves'd be closer to the Jewish stereotype, as they are stereotypically thought of as the Hidden World's Elite, controlling everything behind the scenes along with Dragons (wasn't there even once mentioned a parody piece like Protocols of Elders of Tir naNog? I remember seeing something like that somewhere in the fluff, though I can't put my finger on). What are dwarves' harder to answer - perhaps they are simply Tolkien's dwarves, thrown into a rather unfamiliar world of high tech. As for Native Americans - they simply are what they are, a reborn culture with their own country thanks to the Awakening.

QuotePick a Cyberpunk dystopian theme, and Shadowrun hits it...hard.  Pick a social ill, and Shadowrun hits it...hard.  But it's addressing the conditions of humanity and society not focused social criticism.  Renraku is not Mitsubishi, Damien Knight is not {insert corporate raider of choice} and Orks ain't Niggaz.  Shadowrun describes the awakening of a brand new world (or the reemergence of a very old one) but despite the Magic, the Technology, the advancements of what metahumanity can do, humans are still humans, with the same old hates and the same old flaws, making the same old mistakes, as well as a whole slate of new ones.

I agree that to see Renraku as Mitsubishi is too shallow. Shadowrun's both attempting to tackle "How social issues would develop in this kind of world," but obviously also using some of the writing time to smack current world's problems through the lenses of mirror - verse.

QuoteIt's a mirror, not of Compton, but of humanity.

I'd say both.

QuoteMaybe we'll finally get someone now who can explain Stormbringer's "Dark Side of the Hobby" to us.

I wish he was here, though not necessarily for that.

Rince, remember the original quote I'm responding to.

"However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US."

The problem with this is of course, where are the Latinos and Blacks in Japan, where there is metahuman discrimination against Orks and Trolls?  Or does this deliberately designed mirror morph magically into the Ainu, again with zero cultural or historical linkage?  What about in Germany, where Orks and Trolls are discriminated against?  Does this deliberately designed mirror now show us Eastern Europeans and Middle Easterners?

If the metaphorical stereotype fits any form of discrimination anywhere in the globe, at any time period, then it wasn't deliberately designed to mirror a goddamn thing, other than fucking discrimination itself as a core element of humanity.

You know, that motto of Shadowrun society...Plus ca change...

THAT'S the point.  Everything changes...except us.

Quote from: CRKrueger;910182Rince, remember the original quote I'm responding to.

"However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US."

Well alright - so to be more precise, the Orks and Trolls in Shadowrun's Balkanized US are facing similiar challenges and their cultures and situation is depicted using both positive and negative stereotypes of corresponding cultures (look at American Orks predominant tendency to see gangs as extension of natural orkish tribalism).

QuoteThe problem with this is of course, where are the Latinos and Blacks in Japan, where there is metahuman discrimination against Orks and Trolls?  Or does this deliberately designed mirror morph magically into the Ainu, again with zero cultural or historical linkage?  What about in Germany, where Orks and Trolls are discriminated against?  Does this deliberately designed mirror now show us Eastern Europeans and Middle Easterners?

I think this might be more like same problem Gibbson had - the fact that he never really cared much for lands outside of US more than a brief backdrop for Cool Ideas and Here Be Megacorps. In case of Japan, I'd say it'd be a general commentary on conservativism and reclusiveness of it's society - interesting enough, Shadowrun's not the first to lob a stone that Japan Nazis Are Just Biding It's Time - I'm not gonna quote a very scientific source here, but X - Men did exactly the same thing with Japan, and I think that and World World 2 atrocities are from where Shadowrun's creators were drawing their idea more than an in - depth analysis of Japanese society.

I can't speak on Germany in Shadowrun, as I've never read that sourcebook, and still playing Dragonfall, but how the Orks act there? In general I thought in Europe it's more Anarchists vs Megacorps & Dragons than racial issues. On the other hand, you jest but you might be on to something - depending how European Orks are actually depicted, I think it'd be interesting to look at them through the lenses of not Blacks, but general immigrants, especially Turkish/Arabic.

QuoteIf the metaphorical stereotype fits any form of discrimination anywhere in the globe, at any time period, then it wasn't deliberately designed to mirror a goddamn thing, other than fucking discrimination itself as a core element of humanity.

You know, that motto of Shadowrun society...Plus ca change...

I both agree and disagree - as I said, in large, Shadowrun is indeed tackling discrimination as a phenomena, and discrimination as occuring in a world So Different Yet So Similar to ours. But on the other hand - the drawings of allegories, at least when it comes to the North American societies and most downtrodden minorities in Shadowrun's settings, are not accidental. Perhaps we should look at it more like this - they are both a tool and a means to an end. A means to an end by which certain problems of our times are shown through the lenses of fantasy world (a classic move), and a tool - by using real world's problems' allegories, you can more easily engage in the general distopia of Shadowrun, seeing Familiar Yet Different tropes.

Yes, but the Allegory is general.  Those aliens in Star Trek who were black on different halves weren't deliberately designed to mirror American Blacks, it was pointing out "Humans care about skin color and gee isn't that kind stupid."  Agreed, there was some focus in that it was black on one side as opposed to green during the 60's, but that isn't exactly a carefully honed scalpel either.

An Ork isn't an American Black person.  An Ork is a human being of any race, color or creed, who was born looking like or turned into the Uruk Hai out of LotR.  He's big, strong, has fangs...and he's still human, in fact yesterday he was your human-looking brother, and he still is your brother and he's still human.  Society flipped it's collective shit when people started goblinizing and HUMANS BEING HUMANS, his kind went through shit yeah, kinda like Blacks and Latinos, in part, but also like Japanese American citizens during WWII, Native Americans since whenever and every oppressed minority everywhere in the history of the world.

Saying they are a deliberately designed mirror to reflect the Black and Latino experience in America isn't even coloring with a paint-by-numbers book, there's one friggin' color.  It's so shallow as to be patently ridiculous as in actually worthy of derision.

You want an actual example of a Deliberately Designed Mirror to reflect a specific cultural and racial reference point: District 9.

THAT'S what a deliberately designed mirror looks like, dude.  Shadowrun Orks aren't even on the same continent, let alone ballpark.

Quote from: CRKrueger;910186Yes, but the Allegory is general.  Those aliens in Star Trek who were black on different halves weren't deliberately designed to mirror American Blacks, it was pointing out "Humans care about skin color and gee isn't that kind stupid."

An Ork isn't an American Black person.  An Ork is a human being of any race, color or creed, who was born looking like or turned into the Uruk Hai out of LotR.  He's big, strong, has fangs...and he's still human, in fact yesterday he was your human-looking brother, and he still is your brother and he's still human.  Society flipped it's collective shit when people started goblinizing and HUMANS BEING HUMANS, his kind went through shit yeah, kinda like Blacks and Latinos, in part, but also like Japanese American citizens during WWII, Native Americans since whenever and every oppressed minority everywhere in the history of the world.

Saying they are a deliberately designed mirror to reflect the Black and Latino experience in America isn't even coloring with a paint-by-numbers book, there's one friggin' color.  It's so shallow as to be patently ridiculous as in actually worthy of derision.

You want an actual example of a Deliberately Designed Mirror to reflect a specific cultural and racial reference point: District 9.

THAT'S what a deliberately designed mirror looks like, dude.  Shadowrun Orks aren't even on the same continent, let alone ballpark.

Again - you're confusing an idea that if there's a deliberately designed mirror, it needs to be a paraphrase, not a metaphor. Shadowrun's Seattle Goblinization Ghettos are showing all the traditional stereotypes of both Black and Latino cultures - tribal - style gangs, ubiquitous graffitti, heavy reliance and pride in use of slang (or Orkish) gang culture, different approaches to gaining Civil Rights (Black Panthers/Sons of Saurons vs Martin Luther King/ORK), and they are being hunted by literal mirror Ku Klux Klan. Just because Orks aren't listening to Fangie Smalls doesn't mean that they aren't a metaphor.

Again - I will agree that Shadowrun's racial depictions are tackling wider issues than just "Blacks & Latinos in 80s." Nobody's saying that the metaphor is shallow. But to say that, at the very least, Seattle Orks aren't used as a certain commentary or at the very least, a metaphor of inner-  city Black&Latinos problems, would be also disingenuous, especially as the very creators supposedly agreed to such interpretation. And you can actually do both - you can tackle both a general issue, and a specific one, they aren't exclusive. If anything, Shadowrun used in case of Seattle the well established (if untrue, that's another discussion whether or not, but we've been there so many times I don't care to resurrect it) trope of "ORKS ARE BLACK PEOPLE" to both make a broader and narrower statement - on the issues of discrimination en large, and the issues of ghettoized Blacks.

We can argue to the end of time regarding rest of SR's world (in which case I'd generally agree with you, but with addendum), but Seattle itself I'd say was purposefully designed not just as a dystopian mirror of humanity, but in general, as a dystopian commentary on the times of the writing.

Every minority group has radicals and moderates, remember AIM, Leonard Peltier and the takeover of Alcatraz?  Nothing specific to African Americans.

The role of poor, oppressed minorities in Shadowrun was taken over by Orks and Trolls because they were seen as even more "Other" than the oppressed minorities they replaced.  It took freeing the slaves to make the Irish legit.  There is always a new target.

Humanis kills Dwarves, Elves, Minotaurs, Gnomes, and anything "non-human".  All those be da Niggaz now to?

It's ironic because by specifically making the Ork=Black comparison, you're making the Shadowrun designer's point for them.  There are Black Orks, White Orks, Asian Orks, Hispanic Orks, Middle Eastern Orks, Aboriginal Orks, Rich Orks, Poor Orks, Right Wing Orks, Left Wing Orks, law-abiding Orks, criminal Orks, need I go on?

What you're doing is seeing "Ork" and drawing universal attributes based on superficial outer physical appearance.  In other words, you're a Human and Humans tend to be "ist" even when arguing how terrible "ism" is.

That's the metaphor and it isn't deliberately designed to mirror any one single race's US experience.

FACT: I move the country in Shadowrun, I change who the Orks and Trolls are supposed to "deliberately mirror".
FACT: Orks and Trolls experience isn't limited to Orks and Trolls, even in Shadowrun Seattle.

When that's your metaphor, it works everywhere - this is not a prescription lens you're using, it's a pair of x2 magnifying lenses you get from a drugstore.

Quote from: CRKrueger;910190Every minority group has radicals and moderates, remember AIM, Leonard Peltier and the takeover of Alcatraz?  Nothing specific to African Americans.

Sure, but most of them weren't just split on whether or not to use violent terrorist means to achieve Civil Rights recognition, as was the case with Black Panthers and MLK's Civil Rights. The metaphor of Sons of Saurons is about as obvious as the District 9 aliens.

QuoteThe role of poor, oppressed minorities in Shadowrun was taken over by Orks and Trolls because they were seen as even more "Other" than the oppressed minorities they replaced.  It took freeing the slaves to make the Irish legit.  There is always a new target.

Indeed - and you can use them for various metaphors, allegories, or just plain gaming. Seattle's having marks of a statement on modernity. Japan, as you noted, would have a more general warning of "Holocaust Can Happen Again." The Elves of Tir na nOg on the other hand, aren't exactly a metaphor of Israel. Not all things need to be mirror - image for part to be a metaphor, especially in settings that are created by dozens of writers.

QuoteHumanis kills Dwarves, Elves, Minotaurs, Gnomes, and anything "non-human".  All those be da Niggaz now to?

KKK is also antisemitic, but let's face it, who's been their main point of business ever since the 20s? And just like Humanis, who occasionally kills Elves, they target mostly Orks and Trolls, because they are mostly the poor, easier targets, as well as engaging in anti - gang violence gives Humanis support - just like engaging in anti - gang violence in American South gave KKK the support. And again - fantasy world. Not everything needs to be 1 to 1, for another part to be a metaphor or allegory of something else.

QuoteIt's ironic because by specifically making the Ork=Black comparison, you're making the Shadowrun designer's point for them.  There are Black Orks, White Orks, Asian Orks, Hispanic Orks, Middle Eastern Orks, Aboriginal Orks, Rich Orks, Poor Orks, Right Wing Orks, Left Wing Orks, law-abiding Orks, criminal Orks, need I go on?

Of course -  but you need to remember it is specifically written that
1) Due to Awakening, skin colour no longer matters to anyone
2) I'm specifically talking about Seattle now, where the Orks & Trolls's Burrows/Barrens (crap, I forgot) are most obviously depicted as a metaphor for modern B&L ghettos with their problems. In a way, that's the beauty of game worlds - you can make yourself a small country where Orks are beating down on Humans to send the message "We're all shit if we get power over others"

QuoteWhat you're doing is seeing "Ork" and drawing universal attributes based on superficial outer physical appearance.  In other words, you're a Human and Humans tend to be "ist" even when arguing how terrible "ism" is.

We're talking about game's designer intentions, not my personal views on the Orks in SR . Don't confuse the two - if I point out Orwell's anti - Stalinist message in 1984, does that automatically make me an anti - communist?

QuoteThat's the metaphor and it isn't deliberately designed to mirror any one single race's US experience.

And I agree, in large. But in case of Seattle, the similarities are too obvious, and helped by actual author's claims, to say that they weren't deliberate would be just bad analysis. Sure, in other parts of the worldi t's different - for example, I'd say that Berlin Free State being an allegory of Baader Meinhof success'd be too much of a stretch, though I'd be surprised if there was not a RAF - inspired faction in BFS.

I'd be willing to concede however, that in Seattle's case, even the use of familiar tropes such as Ghetto Blacks = Ghetto Orks, is used mostly to reinforce the general Dystopian Mirror of Cyberpunk With Magic, by providing issues familiar or at least knowledgeable to the players, rather than just using Shadowrun as a political soapbox (though again, one does not necessarily exclude the other).

It would nice of someone, anyone, would actually quote the Shadowrun designers who supposedly purposefully constructed this deliberately designed mirror.

Seattle has a large street kid population, they even made a documentary about it mid-80s.  As the home of Microsoft, Boeing and other technical giants, Seattle had the tech Salary-Wage divide way earlier than the Bay Area did (of course, being California, Silicon Valley had to do things to stupid extremes).  If you're going to claim any type of Seattle-specific metaphor, you'd actually be on base and not on the moon if you went for the enormous economic divide between Rich and Poor.  Remember, in Seattle, even the Elves have their own slum, Tarislar.  Ain't an Ork Thang - the Seattle Underground the Orks live in, the Dwarves were stuck down their first.  Hey, cycles of oppressed peoples, it took the Orks and Trolls to make the Elves and Dwarves legit...where have I seen this before?

Quote from: Rincewind1;910195I'd be willing to concede however, that in Seattle's case, even the use of familiar tropes such as Ghetto Blacks = Ghetto Orks, is used mostly to reinforce the general Dystopian Mirror of Cyberpunk With Magic, by providing issues familiar or at least knowledgeable to the players, rather than just using Shadowrun as a political soapbox (though again, one does not necessarily exclude the other).

In Tir Tairngire, one of their television stations has a Simpson's-like comedy show about an Elven High Prince and the idiotic humans who live on his land.  The translation from Sperethiel is something like "Keeper in the Monkey House".
In Tir Na Nog, the Elves have taken over Ireland and persecute all non-elves.  Are Elves British?  In Tir Na Nog, they might be.  In the US they might be the nameless whitebred elites, in Europe they may be The Illuminati, in Japan they are the weird fascination with Western culture, everyone wants to fuck one, but no one wants to be one.

Plus ca change...Humans are Human.  The Awakening changed the scenery, but we're still the fucked up a-holes we've always been.

Quote from: CRKrueger;910196It would nice of someone, anyone, would actually quote the Shadowrun designers who supposedly purposefully constructed this deliberately designed mirror.

Seattle has a large street kid population, they even made a documentary about it mid-80s.  As the home of Microsoft, Boeing and other technical giants, Seattle had the tech Salary-Wage divide way earlier than the Bay Area did (of course, being California, Silicon Valley had to do things to stupid extremes).  If you're going to claim any type of Seattle-specific metaphor, you'd actually be on base and not on the moon if you went for the enormous economic divide between Rich and Poor.  Remember, in Seattle, even the Elves have their own slum, Tarislar.  Ain't an Ork Thang - the Seattle Underground the Orks live in, the Dwarves were stuck down their first.  Hey, cycles of oppressed peoples, it took the Orks and Trolls to make the Elves and Dwarves legit...where have I seen this before?

Of course - I've thought on this for a moment, and I think I can also word my arguments better. It's not just that Orks = Blacks, but the general wider argument whether or not the Seattle's Orks&Trolls are utilizing stereotypes of Blacks&Latinos in order to make a dystopian statement and a metaphor for inner-  city B&L problems, or whether the similarities between O&Ts and B&Ls in Seattle are only used to provide a familiar metaphor that allows you to engage in the deeper problem of class & racial divides in dystopian magical future of SR, as it provides you with a familiar example. Myself, I do not think those are exclusive.

Didn't know about the street kids, but ironically enough I had an argument with my work buddy (we're both working for a certain megacorp currently based in Seattle ) that Seattle was a shithole, with me defending it. Guess he was right.

Quote from: CRKrueger;910198In Tir Tairngire, one of their television stations has a Simpson's-like comedy show about an Elven High Prince and the idiotic humans who live on his land.  The translation from Sperethiel is something like "Keeper in the Monkey House".
In Tir Na Nog, the Elves have taken over Ireland and persecute all non-elves.  Are Elves British?  In Tir Na Nog, they might be.  In the US they might be the nameless whitebred elites, in Europe they may be The Illuminati, in Japan they are the weird fascination with Western culture, everyone wants to fuck one, but no one wants to be one.

Plus ca change...Humans are Human.  The Awakening changed the scenery, but we're still the fucked up a-holes we've always been.

That sounds more like Gilligan's Island than Simpsons. But yes, I agree with you - I made exactly the same point. You can have Orks in one place be a standby for Inner - City Blacks, in another you can create a Balkanized offshot of Canada where Orks Have The Power, and it's hardly better. That's the beauty of Balkanized settings - you can put whatever City - State you desire, and make whatever statement you want, as long as it fits in the general dystopian idea of Shadowrun. However, I'll still stick that while rest of the world is all kinds of crazy but not directly allegorical, the Seattle's design used various real - life problems dressed in fantasy cyberpunk aesthetic the strongest, even getting a little soapboxy about it.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;909905In most RPG settings, you'd be correct. However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US.

Citation and quote of the 1e designers saying that this was so in Shadowrun 1e?

Not gamers saying "look at the game and it's obvious" or "in this 3rd edition sourcebook". A point blank quote from the designers about the First Edition of Shadowrun saying that Orks and Trolls were deliberately designed to mirror Hispanics and African Americans. In short, put up or shut up.  Where is the incontrovertable proof that this was a deliberate design choice?

As far as ork and troll slums in Seattle being cesspools with graffiti and inhabitants using their own slang? It's the Barrens. The human and elven slums are every bit as bad.

And to the comment a few pages back about Tolkien's use of swarthy easterners? Being a historian, I'm willing to wager he did so as short hand, based upona culture that conquered Spain and southern France, spent tbe better part on a century invading france after getting chased out, occupied Sicily, invaded Italy numerous time including sack Rome at least once, conquered Anatolia and invaded Hungery several times.

So, easy short hand.