I'm with Future Bond Villain. I think cyberpunk is more relevant than ever. I'd even say it's more relevant *now* than when it was incepted.

I don't think it's hyperbole at all to say we *are* living through the cyberpunk era right now. It's happening. We're on the advent of burgeoning technologies that are impacting our culture even now in tectonic ways. It's easy to lose sight of these things.

We're carrying around mini-supercomputers compared to the desktops that existed back in Gibson's time. Hell I *remember* people still using punchcards back then! Now? We're creating hearts from your own stem-cells, AI has advanced to the point where the idea of "work" is called into question. Driverless cars are a few years away - consider the massive impact that will make. It's like the gap in time between the Wright Bros. taking off at Kittyhawk, and several decades later - we were on the fucking Moon.

It's *bigger* than that.

Sidetrack. I realized something else about CP2020 that made me think of my foray into cyberpunk. Music. When I first read Gibson, I was digging on Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, and Gary Numan. By CP2020 - I was blasting Front 242, Skinny Puppy, Frontline Assembly. I was also dosing hard on  - Anthrax, Maiden, Black Flag, Metallica, Specimen and even lots of Public Enemy, NWA, Ice T, and other hardcore rap acts. CP2020 embraced all of it.

I had a very diverse group of players - some more into music from one scene to another. But the CP2020 game allowed me to cross-pollinate a *lot* of that music into the game and it felt right. Playing EZ Muthafuckin-E as background music in an area of the CZ controlled by Crips (I used Los Angeles as my primary city) made the soul-crushing menace of 2020 south-central (which we lived on the edge of in real life) seem that much more authentic. While my players that were into doing the Rocker-thing I'd play Queensryche "Rage for Order" in their clubs, and that worked perfectly too.

Even today cyberpunk-style music proliferates. I still find bands that come and go but clearly have their roots in a lot of the music that find a home in the eclectic cyberpunk genre.

Syntax - "Bliss"

Actually the whole album Meccano Mind is wonderfully cyberpunk.

CP2020 really embraced that I thought, but I think it gets lost in most discussions about it.

You know, Tenbones, it's funny...I was having a conversation with some friends the other night about Cyberpunk culture, Gibson etc. and I was talking about the tonal shift from the Sprawl Trilogy + Burning Chrome to the Bridge Trilogy.  I know the Bridge Trilogy has it's own grit and sorrow and madness but it's cast from a different mold than the Sprawl Trilogy: by the end of the Cold War it was clear that, no, the Soviets weren't going to have all of the oil producing countries in their pockets, Bonn wasn't going to flare and die under a multi-megaton explosion, the US wasn't going to become a Balkanized wasteland of 20th century ruins etc. etc.  Affected by the positive end of the Cold War in which the west "won" (in that we had no global conflagration) and the sudden inrush of peace and prosperity, it really shaped the Bridge Trilogy.

Of course, Gibson couldn't (hell, no-one could) predict 9/11, two (or three depending on who you talk to) economic collapses (the .com collapse, the housing collapse and the general economic crash in 2009-20...well, ongoing again depending on who you talk to), two "endless wars", but assuming those things didn't happen, the slightly brighter future of The Bridge Trilogy becomes a lot more plausible.  Which is not to say that it is entirely desirable either (the Bridge is it's own city because of a post-SF Earthquake humanitarian crisis the type of which we were simply not acquainted with in the US, at least not until Katrina hit NO), but at the same time it is somehow less terrible than the Sprawl.

Of course, we did have 9/11, Katrina, 3 economic collapses, two endless wars that are partially fought by corporate mercenaries (although despite being in force still in Iraq and Afghanistan you'll note that since 2008 the media has had a hell of a lot less to say about Halliburton and Blackwater...I guess once "your guy" is in office what was bad is OK or ignorable) - so, yeah, I think the Sprawl Trilogy is a lot more relevant.

Quote from: Headless;885655Is cyber punk obsolete?

Two words: Johnny Mnemonic.

Definitely!!! While I think the Bridge Trilogy is important to the genre, I don't think in terms of context and timing it matches the Sprawl in terms of overall scope and power.

It's almost precisely because the Bridge Trilogy builds on ideas from the Sprawl (and other genre works) that it can't match it. It's like talking about Rock n' Roll and it's the Beatles... and everyone else, even though there was rock before the Beatles and all the stuff they pulled from.

I also think that George Alec Effinger's 'When Gravity Fails' (and the rest of that series) offers a different, and perhaps (arguably equally) important look at cyberpunk via the lens of Middle-Eastern culture, giving some added gravitas I always felt missing from the "Cold War" influences of early cyberpunk works. Effingers stuff stands out very clearly by its own conceits - which is important because CP2020 glosses the middle-east over by nuking it to glass. Effinger's stance is a bright one in developing a post-American/Russian narrative that while dark, it's not as nihilistic as it's turning into.

Maybe CP2020 is more correct given the current state of things.  LOL sad but possibly true.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827423According to a conversation posted in TBP:



I call bullshit. I don't see anything at all in its core about being that. I see rules for firefights, cyberdecking, etc. Hell, I don't even see what is being claimed above in the fluff surrounding it.

Am I blind?

No, you aren't


Other than the color pallet I don't see why Street of Fire is Cyberpunk in the least. Its exactly what it says on the tin, a rock and roll fable.

As you can tell Streets of Fire is one my favorite movies

 In no way shape or form is Tom Cody a Street Samurai and while yes McCoy could be subbed in for Molly she is really just a down on her heels  opportunist. Its not her regular job.

I'd describe McCoy as the RPG character who was made by a dude, his player didn't make it so a girl played him. Which is basically how it happened in casting. McCoy was originally cast as a middle aged overweight guy.

Even Billy Fish the manager is honorable and tough  he is not a Mr. Johnson, its personal not corporate and he actually cares about Ellen.

As for Ellen, yes technically she a Rocker in Cyberpunk but she is a  musician and apolitical , unlike the games version.


The Cyberpunk RPG as written  models action, fantasy shopping for boys as there are like 7 or more books of nothing but gear I can name off hand  (Chrome 1-4, Blackhand and Maximum Metal and Brainware blowout) all the other books are as crunchy as pea gravel. Yes its set in a Cyberpunk inspired setting but that is really closer to Post Apocalypse at least  in the US .


The US sourcebook Land of the Free and Home of the brave are basically very plausible Mad Max

You can play political rabble rousing which makes sense given the games authors grew up in the 60's early 70's and in a different culture than most White Middle class gamers at the time but I've never seen anyone interested. Its certainly supported, heck you could play a band if you wanted

CP is  ideal for kinetic action and while you can play coffin motel dystopia or Case in Molly in a tree k.i.s.s.i.n.g. you can do that with any game. Its not a supported playstyle.

Honestly neither is it a permanent  dystopia  , the crowding situation in Night City is temporary do to civic collapse and pretty much everyone male and female uses cheap birth control implants.It sucks but people are dealing.

It only becomes a true dystopia with the Cybergeneration which in its own way is kind of modern with a sort of late cyberpunk meets divergent meets doug-locke from new mutants vibe.


Also I don't think any RPG can model passionate relationships like Tom Cody and Ellen Aim  very well. Almost all the players are men, at the time young, now young and middle aged

At the time the game was popular it was more likely to have people with military experience or combat skills   or actual combat experience from the Gulf War  than who had had passionate love affairs.

Even more modern games like Mosterhearts or Swine games don't model romance  well as it  a player base issue, mostly men, many with eccentric personalities or aspies and even many gamer women are odd ducks.

Also the GM + players model is not good for this. C+M or T+E is about passion, intimacy and maybe lust this is not a group activity and its not that great for gaming. Even adult games, typically sexy time card games aren't exactly a regular thing and they are not RPG's in any case,

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782Other than the color pallet I don't see why Street of Fire is Cyberpunk in the least. Its exactly what it says on the tin, a rock and roll fable.

As you can tell Streets of Fire is one my favorite movies

But see? Cyberpunk isn't self-referential. Rock-n-roll fables are absolutely part of cyberpunk. Streets of Fire is not, itself, strictly speaking, cyberpunk. But cyberpunk definitely has "Streets of Fire" in it.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782I'd describe McCoy as the RPG character who was made by a dude, his player didn't make it so a girl played him. Which is basically how it happened in casting. McCoy was originally cast as a middle aged overweight guy.

Even Billy Fish the manager is honorable and tough  he is not a Mr. Johnson, its personal not corporate and he actually cares about Ellen.

As for Ellen, yes technically she a Rocker in Cyberpunk but she is a  musician and apolitical , unlike the games version.

Cyberpunk is just the setting. You're applying the game roles to the characters of a movie that isn't strictly cyberpunk, how it's expressed of course is up to you as the GM - for example, a rocker doesn't *have* to be political. It's the setting of cyberpunk as a social dystopia that makes the power of the Rockerboy an obvious political tool. Let's face it, they have a lot to be angry about. There are rules for a class variant "Rabblerouser" - or something, where you're a political activist. Same ability.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782The Cyberpunk RPG as written  models action, fantasy shopping for boys as there are like 7 or more books of nothing but gear I can name off hand  (Chrome 1-4, Blackhand and Maximum Metal and Brainware blowout) all the other books are as crunchy as pea gravel. Yes its set in a Cyberpunk inspired setting but that is really closer to Post Apocalypse at least  in the US .

Yes and no. It can be any and all of these things. It's designed that way. If it were truly post-apocalyptic you wouldn't have the massive megaplexes that exist in the US. But you could certainly play it that way in between the cities.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782The US sourcebook Land of the Free and Home of the brave are basically very plausible Mad Max

You can play political rabble rousing which makes sense given the games authors grew up in the 60's early 70's and in a different culture than most White Middle class gamers at the time but I've never seen anyone interested. Its certainly supported, heck you could play a band if you wanted

In hindsight you might have an interesting point... KINDA. The assumptions of CP2020 are, at least in the Land of the Free, that the government is kinda trying to work its way back. There are still elections - but only for those with SIN cards. What I'm getting at is it depends entirely on you as the GM what you want to emphasize. It's not *just* post-apocalyptic. It's whatever serves your needs.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782CP is  ideal for kinetic action and while you can play coffin motel dystopia or Case in Molly in a tree k.i.s.s.i.n.g. you can do that with any game. Its not a supported playstyle.

Honestly neither is it a permanent  dystopia  , the crowding situation in Night City is temporary do to civic collapse and pretty much everyone male and female uses cheap birth control implants.It sucks but people are dealing.

It only becomes a true dystopia with the Cybergeneration which in its own way is kind of modern with a sort of late cyberpunk meets divergent meets doug-locke from new mutants vibe.


Also I don't think any RPG can model passionate relationships like Tom Cody and Ellen Aim  very well. Almost all the players are men, at the time young, now young and middle aged

At the time the game was popular it was more likely to have people with military experience or combat skills   or actual combat experience from the Gulf War  than who had had passionate love affairs.

I disagree with most of this. It's not the job of a game to force a behavior upon players that have no interest in doing them. These are elements of a game that exist if your players and GM want it to. To the point that this kind of play might not have existed in your anecdotal experiences - obviously I won't dispute. I won't even dispute that your experience wasn't the norm.

But in my experience it wasn't. My PC's had lovers, they had meaningless sex with NPC's. The game doesn't *need* to model this stuff but it's there. It may not be front-and-center because it doesn't need to be. That you, and many others, may not have engaged in those kinds of things is irrelevant to the system. That said - they even had a skill that covered your use for it: Seduction. So in this regard they modeled it as much as they modeled your ability to do Athletics.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782Even more modern games like Mosterhearts or Swine games don't model romance  well as it  a player base issue, mostly men, many with eccentric personalities or aspies and even many gamer women are odd ducks.

Also the GM + players model is not good for this. C+M or T+E is about passion, intimacy and maybe lust this is not a group activity and its not that great for gaming. Even adult games, typically sexy time card games aren't exactly a regular thing and they are not RPG's in any case,

I think you're projecting a lot of different stuff here. I generally play with adults, and our games have adult content, I've had women play - and do adult content, CP is no different than *any* other RPG in how much it emphasizes (it probably emphasizes it more - Hello Mr. Studd/Midnight Lady). It most certainly is about the GM + Player dynamic in these regards. Just like I've seen gaming groups that highly emphasize RP over being Murdersquads.

I'm not sure what you're overall point to this is. Are you saying the game should emphasize and model it more for some reason because clearly the emotional immature/incapable aren't getting it? I'm not clear on this.

I think it's unfair to hold CP2020 - or even Shadowrun to this standard as problem of the system/setting itself. I know of very few RPG's that do it overtly. Just like D&D doesn't go into in-depth modeling about where Half-Elves and Half-orcs come from...

Quote from: tenbones;885801But see? Cyberpunk isn't self-referential. Rock-n-roll fables are absolutely part of cyberpunk. Streets of Fire is not, itself, strictly speaking, cyberpunk. But cyberpunk definitely has "Streets of Fire" in it.

SNIP
I'm not sure what you're overall point to this is. Are you saying the game should emphasize and model it more for some reason because clearly the emotional immature/incapable aren't getting it? I'm not clear on this.

SNIP

I think it's unfair to hold CP2020 - or even Shadowrun to this standard as problem of the system/setting itself. I know of very few RPG's that do it overtly. Just like D&D doesn't go into in-depth modeling about where Half-Elves and Half-orcs come from...

I don't see much or any  SoF in CP2020 YMMV of course. Heck I don't see anyone remotely heroic. Most PC's I've seen are low empathy (3-4 is very common) heavily chromed killers with wired reflexes and cyborg eyes ,

Even in Shadowrun the PC's typically were as amoral as the Mister Johnsons that employed them

Again YMMV

This actually makes perfect sense from a system POV (both systems by default support this kind of game) and from a cultural view.  I tend to agree with Free Northerner We live in a system that set up for the  benefit of rootless sociopaths . Cyberpunk just blows up some real world trends, add in bionics (and  magic in case of Shadowrun) and lets  the PC's operate outside the law where the players operate within it.  

Its close to wish fulfillment in some ways. Cyberpunk is thoroughly modern

My feeling is that most RPG's, pretty much all of them  are played for action and  combat and sometimes other sorts of conflicts like stealth and entry  almost always with small units

If you  want other types of gaming  if they are the preferred authorial style, the rules ought to support it and if you want Case and Molly making out in a coffin motel or Tom Cody and Ellen Aim relationships the rules need to push that behavior. Give XP, give a refresh reward whatever,

The modern system Blades in the Dark tries to do  this, lets PC indulge a vice which could be "family time" or whatever to reduce stress

Even then it might not happen but if you make a book full of cyberware, guns, and combat rules, since people usually want them expect those things and not much else,


CP2020 hints at social rules  but doesn't really do it well  and while there is a Rockerboy splatbook with interesting rules  , its still not  a common playstyle


Heck even though Cp2020 and Shadowrun  have tons of vehicles  I rarely see anything other than small units of men doing action things just as I rarely see starship combat in Traveller even though its has a lot of support

They do happen but GM's are often afraid of PC power and unwilling to step outside that mode and the players don't seem to mind either. YMMV but I've never had a request for more vehicle action or more relationship stuff or more hacking

I do get regular requests for more combat

So in the end ,I suspect  its going to be a slog to get much more than small unit games and if you want them, it pays to select ones group carefully if you can and to use a system that backs that up.

A much better cyberpunk rock and roll fable is Little Heroes by Norman Spinrad.  Shamefully underrated book.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885640The book Speed Tribes (which correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a loose translation of the term bosozoku) gives a little bit of insight into the Speed Tribes mindset, although it is very dated now (1993-ish, I think).

sorry a little late here but thanks for bringing up that book its still helpful even if out dated much like how you still can learn about medicine watching an episode of emergency

Quote from: Headless;885655New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

Cyberpunk isn't really about street crime so much as it is about inequality, I think - it's about globalisation and technological improvements serving the rich but harming the poor. A very 1980s set of themes, but also one which is very much in the zeitgeist nowadays. So to that extent I don't think it has gone away or will do.

As an aside, Roe v Wade or legalised abortion can't be the explanation for the reduction in violent crime because (apart from it being far too simplistic an explanation anyway) the phenomenon exists across the developed world. As with all these things it is down to a vast and complex set of different factors but big and plausible ones would seem to be ageing populations, the tendency for young men to be inside playing video games rather than being outside causing trouble, and the rise of CCTV and other technological advances in security.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885847A much better cyberpunk rock and roll fable is Little Heroes by Norman Spinrad.  Shamefully underrated book.

I loved Little Heroes.  Still have my copy floating around in a box downstairs. I'd agree that it's an unsung cyberpunk gem.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885847A much better cyberpunk rock and roll fable is Little Heroes by Norman Spinrad.  Shamefully underrated book.

If we are talking Cyberpunk Rock Fables can I just say ...

Spoiler

OK. I just was shocked and awed by watching Nemesis for the first time with friends. It is the pinnacle of fantabulous bad-great movies, achieving sublime apotheosis for one's inner 14 year old boy starved of sex & violence. I wander about in a daze even now, a day after, as if I have watched G-d and all I witness now are pale reflections of Its Majesty.

But this is on the heels of absolute disgust with Shadowrun as a functioning system for our play needs. The latest in a string of doomed campaigns recently came to the oft experienced realization that "the system doesn't deliver its promised setting." It's a chunky, clunky, contested, bested, munchkin front-loaded, ass-mined equip list, garbled, time sink of a no-climax whiskey-dicked frotage mess — and we've just had enough. So, if you got a defense for Shadowrun germinating now, I don't wanna hear about it. "Because I am not one of your fans!" -- Mommie Dearest

I want to trod the road to anything approaching the rapid fire glory that is Nemesis, which means Real Time combat speed resolution is at a premium. In fact, Real Time resolution of absolutely everything, social, decking, etc., is now at a premium. Also, functional weapon & armor equip lists, sane "edge rules," less obfuscated pass/fail probability, etc. all of it, is at a premium — if it is at least functional at a less than crunchier than "Jif crunchy, now with Quarry Gravel!" level.

So, how strong is Cyberpunk's chassis to replace wholesale Shadowrun's? What are Cyberpunk's major system quirks, pitfalls, and failures? Can I run a minute long combat in anything less that an hour? Where does the game grind its momentum to a halt and where does it sing?

I'll fuckin' port this movie bad boy into OD&D if I have to, but don't make me go there yet. I'll even whip out the Jenga Dread if need be. (I'll do it motherfuckers, don't you think I'm messin' 'round here, you suckheads! State of the Art!)
:mad:

— with love, ever your friend,
opaopajr

What do you mean by "sane 'edge rules?'" I don't know the term "edge rules."

Making a new thread, because
1. This will turn out to be an epic threadjack.
2. The farthest we get this away from the OP idea of how CP2020 should have modeled Case and Molly's romance, the fucking better.